Embodied Stress And The Cost Of Perfectionism – with Susan Montanaro

Tanya Gill: 00:00:08

Hi friend, I'm Tanya Gill Welcome to lighten up and unstuck your What the fuck. Together we explore the ways through life's stickiness moments, and how to live with more peace, joy, love and gratitude. We're going to talk honestly about what isn't easy so you can discover the light within you that will carry you forward. My friend, this podcast is about you in real life, your body, mind and soul, and the opportunity to not only live your best, but shine, doing it

Tanya Gill: 00:00:47

my friends, welcome to lighten up and unstuck. You're What the fuck? I have a beautiful human to share with you today. Susan Montanaro is joining us from New York. And Susan has a podcast that you need to listen to. It's called dreams and detours. And it's all about living the life that you are living versus the life you expected you would create for yourself. And Susan is also a social worker, which makes me just love her more. Because of course, when social workers and life coaching come together in the in the world, I think that they're super rich. So Susan, welcome. Welcome. Welcome.

Susan Montanaro: 00:01:30

Tanya, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here today. Thank you, it is so great to share space with you. And you know, before we hit record, we were already talking about perfection and our relationships around life's path. And you were sharing that you just cut your hair, I did cut my hair, I cut my hair off. And one of the cool things that I had started to share with you, when we were talking about that was that I love to play around with cutting my hair off, I love to play around with it in terms of lanes and stuff like that, but I really have this thing that happens when I end a relationship. There have been a few times in my life that when I've gone through a maybe a bad breakup or a relationship that didn't work out. I mean, long term one, you know, I kind of take it out on my hair. And I've chosen those moments to sort of recreate my look and like feel, you know, and that's a way it's a coping mechanism. I think that you and I as social workers, and therapists can really appreciate that.

Tanya Gill: 00:02:33

So interesting to notice that pattern, though. Hey, and then. And then you shared with me though, you shared with me off off camera that you weren't planning on doing that this time?

Susan Montanaro: 00:02:47

That's right. So I was in this moment where I didn't necessarily look to make this one of those times. It wasn't for any particular reason. It was just like,

Tanya Gill: 00:02:59

Okay, that didn't come to mind. Great.

Susan Montanaro: 00:03:03

Well, I had a look so much stress this year, kind of come out of I mean, I'm not just saying Oh, my blaming someone, I participated in a relationship that ultimately ends up being unhealthy. And that really triggered me and I was just like, Is this happening, but I kept trying to, like many of us will often find ourselves doing although I don't know people find themselves doing it's still in their 50s. But I was trying to really compensate for a bad spot this particular person was in and I kept trying to just keep at it. I was ignoring that my needs weren't being met, I was ignoring the fact that it was actually stressing my life out. And what happened was all the bricks came tumbling down on me because if you don't hear the knock, that's what essentially is going to happen in a period of time. That happened to me this just became so great. I had back issues I you know, hikes and compressed discs, I had spasms, all this stuff started happening. Like very, very quickly. And because of it my hair started to thin out, it started to not paying nice, like everything physically occurred to me through the means of stress in my life. And so ultimately, I had a whack my hair off. I think she took like seven eight inches off because it was just like ill and even I would say to myself, I'm like you I'm like looking at you. I'm like, you can't even like blow it out in a way that looks like you were you feel good or it looks something like it's in some styles. I just like whacked it all off. And I was like, you know, I cried through that. Never had to do that before because I felt like I lost my power. But like I lost my decision making in that moment. And you know, I know it looks cute and I can really say that because I've had shorter hair and it could be really fun and it looks fuller. And it is and it's healthier and everything is like sort of turning around now in terms of the you know, the stress is leaving my body in life and that's brilliant. So grateful. I work with that obviously right it doesn't just happen because we We cry about it or free events. But it was a really weird moment of not feeling like I was in my in control. And I didn't like it. I didn't like it at all. So,

Tanya Gill: 00:05:13

and control is a really funny thing. Like, I think control is really funny because as a, an I call myself a recovering perfectionist, right? Because every single day, it's a practice. And, you know, some days the perfectionism is around my website. Other days, my the perfectionism, or is around how I'm showing up for someone. And then, you know, we do have our perfectionism things around our body, our hair, our skin, our whatever that looks like,

Susan Montanaro: 00:05:48

whatever makes us feel comfortable in ourselves, right? Yeah.

Tanya Gill: 00:05:52

And whatever makes us feel comfortable within ourselves, gives us that feeling of security, which is totally false.

Susan Montanaro: 00:06:01

Totally false. But it's like our blankie. It's like our place we go. It's that place of security that we hold on to. And I think as long as we sometimes wake up to it, and most people do not to just continue to be like consciously reminding yourself that that is that and yes, I can pretend and use that as my shield, but it really isn't going to guard me or safe safeguard me any more than anything else.

Tanya Gill: 00:06:24

Well, the amazing thing is, is that as you were under this stress, your body continued to send you messages you were talking about your back, you were talking about your discs, and then you said your hair got thinner and started to fall out. And is it incredible, like my friend, I totally empathize with you. Because I've been there where I've ignored all of the signs and just pushed and pushed and pushed, and thought the way forward is head down, ass up. And then eventually, you realize, you just have to fucking surrender.

Susan Montanaro: 00:06:58

You do. And the thing is, is like that's a big surrender such a big theme in my life ever since many years ago, when I understood the power of surrender. And I actually, you know, you don't understand it until you actually do it. But once the light bulb went off, I immediately then surrendered to my life. And that was the biggest game one of the biggest game changers ever, for me, and I think would be for anyone really. And so that's like a normal thing for me. So it was interesting to have this, I don't know, fleeting moment of a feeling spun around from that all or not not really giving in. Thankfully, it didn't last because I do know better. But yeah, just letting go and taking the ride of life so much smarter, so much easier. And the things that you want most are the things that are really meant to be I would say maybe they say find this beautiful way of falling into place when you just sort of let go of the reins and trying to oversteer or, you know, over control. Isn't that a beautiful thing? It's really

Tanya Gill: 00:08:06

encompassing, you know, it's so cool. You're talking you talk about, about how you, historically and I want to ask about this, you arrived at this place of surrender. And I can tell like my own experience, the experience of a lot of my clients is that that surrendering is really really fucking hard. Oh, yeah. Because

Susan Montanaro: 00:08:27

I didn't do it until late in life I ever saw it. It's still some days like, I'm like, wow, I'm really doing this. You know, it's hard. Yeah.

Tanya Gill: 00:08:35

It's creating that really, really deep level of trust.

Susan Montanaro: 00:08:39

But let me ask you a question about your history with it. Because I think the idea of surrendering was harder than actually being in and once you once you do let go. I think it's the it's kind of like anything else that's fearful. It's because you don't know what to expect or you have this illusion and idea that it's going to disrupt your life or make you feel shame or make things hard. I feel like we have this idea about things that that is a false idea. By the way. I feel like that that's in that category. Would you agree with?

Tanya Gill: 00:09:17

Totally, totally. I call it anticipatory. Fill in the blank. Yes. I have anticipatory grief. We have. Tory worry, we have anticipatory loss, we have anticipatory and, and when we, you know, my experience, I'll talk personally my own experience of and when I say surrender, I guess what I'm saying is surrender really is acceptance. It isn't letting go of control. It is accepting where you are right? Fucking now. Yeah, with everything that is part of your past story, and everything that you We're beautifully creating forward. But it's saying that I can be here right now and be okay.

Susan Montanaro: 00:10:05

Right? And a little bit of I don't have to force things that if I just let go of them also, I should be right here it is going to be okay. But also China to like shove that, you know, square peg through the round hole issue, like, just stop, stop trying to force other people to do things, stop trying to force yourself to do things, stop playing that game of trying to like be the one who's controlling all the chess pieces on the Game of Life, sort of be in the moment, let them all just see where they where they fall, you know, a little bit, and it's okay, it's all okay.

Tanya Gill: 00:10:42

What would you say to someone though, who is afraid of letting go of letting go of all of the chess pieces or saying if I if I do that, everything is going to fall apart. I'm the center of my organization. I'm the center of my family. I'm the center of my community, I'm, you know, I'm not together. So

Susan Montanaro: 00:11:08

what I think is really interesting is and there's a couple of different ways that you could use an example when you're speaking to someone depending on what that role might look like, but really across the board, it becomes a little bit the same. When you're managing a work capacity, you hired all of these people, you you wanted them to have brilliant skills and record stellar backgrounds or whatever the priorities in the requisites were for the positions or for the promotions even

Tanya Gill: 00:11:37

let them do their job. Let them do their job.

Susan Montanaro: 00:11:41

You high you married this person you love them for this you love them for that maybe it was their kindness. Maybe it was their their work ethic. Maybe it was their integrity, and maybe it was their family. Look what you marry this person. Let them be Who the hell they are. Leaving the fuck alone. Let them keep shining. Why do you put their light out? Look in your own plate. I love the look in your own play. So I got told as a kid to look at my own plate in the nastiest in the most negative way growing up looking around play was a it was a manual fucking business kind of statement. But you know what I love about that statement because I could cringe from it. I could feel triggered by it. I do not I do not. I love looking your own plate, look at your own plates. Brilliant. Looking your own plate means Mind your business, take care of yourself. The positive thing Oh, first, yes, regarding your stuff and your plate that is yours to deal with be responsible for you. That's what that means to me now.

Tanya Gill: 00:12:37

And you still have the opportunity to share what's on your plate, but totally guide how you share it,

Susan Montanaro: 00:12:44

right but get your nose out of everybody else's play. Super important. That's part of surrender to me. That is part of surrender to me, it's like just look at your own plate. And then of course, you know, be gentle with yourself, be kind to yourself. Try not to say that everything has to be on your plate all at once. You know, let things sort of like you know, take take a moment live live in the moment, right? Be present, when you're present, you're not having the anticipatory anything, because you're not walking down the road, you are literally writing yourself into the here and the now. And so that sort of naturally and automatically relieves you of the excess that is just unnecessary. It is hard to do it is there it is hard to consider doing all I can say and I've said this to many people I don't doubt you have as well. When you work with people, it's the I'm telling you give it a try. I'm telling you give it a try, just let go. Let go and see how it goes. After a month or two you really really feel like your way of holding on tight was really the way to go back to it. It's always gonna be there for you gripping on white knuckled through life or tense you know, making your body like being contorted into all of this nasty, stressful positioning. Oh, knock yourself out, you can go back to it, it'll be waiting for you if you're really want it. But I just don't think you're gonna want it, I think you're gonna find it much easier to kind of be on a magic carpet ride. How I know it is

Tanya Gill: 00:14:15

oh, and surrender. The benefit of surrender is that when when, when we, as I say women, because most of the people that I work with are women, and you and I are women, when we as women surrender, we are also turning over an opportunity to others, right. And I think we forget that, like we it's it's easy for us to be in and I'll use the word Control Freak mode because I have so been there, especially as a single parent with young kids trying to go to school and all of the things as a solo parent. And so control becomes almost a natural mechanism. But what we forget is that when we surrender, we actually share opportunity to others. So that opportunity can look like them embracing opportunities for growth, learning new things, expanding their own awareness, abilities, skills, all of those things.

Susan Montanaro: 00:15:21

Well, that's kind of like minding your own business and looking your own plane, right? Let everybody deal with what they've got in front of them, you know, at some point, and I echoing what you're saying, it's like, at some point, everyone gets to have their own life and their own experiences, everyone gets to accumulate their own data about what those experiences have brought to them, the ones they want to repeat the ones they'd rather not let go and let people do what they need to do. Right? Totally

Tanya Gill: 00:15:50

well, and you know, that data, I want to talk about that data, because that data is super interesting. It is so easy to get stuck in the data of the past. And think that the data of the past is actually going to map the path forward. Tell me more about that. Well, you know, I It's interesting, because I was really, I was recently listening to a presentation about oh, I wish I could remember her name, it's left my head. And it was about trauma, it was trauma, ology, and the idea is that there are some people who are so defined by their trauma that they use it actually as an anchor and a tether in their lives. And and then choose to spread it instead of experiencing that surrender. And the idea is that, that, like you said, that data of the past that were like, you know, so for example, someone may tether themselves to, I'm a divorcee. Right, and so, whenever they have an opportunity, they somehow interject that little piece of trauma into a conversation, they lead with it, they Yeah, or, or at some point, they use it, to try and whether intentionally or unintentionally receive empathy from other people. Because they don't want to abandon their trauma, and they're so living in that past data, right. And so, you know, the surrender is being able to say in that, for example, is, I am divorced, I chose a partner that did not work out in the long run. The consequences of that are X, Y, Zed, Q, and probably the whole rest of the alphabet, too. And I am here right now, and I'm okay. Right. And I can create a different future forward using some of the information from those past data points, and surrendering and focusing on the possibilities forward. Right. And that's deep trauma,

Susan Montanaro: 00:18:22

when someone cannot detach from the situation or the

Tanya Gill: 00:18:29

outcome.

Susan Montanaro: 00:18:32

That's you know, that's, that's deeper work to be done. So not, not like some of the surrendering that we might be pointing to for people, especially people listening, it's like, general population, this is you're not in the category of a deep trauma. Surrendering should be far simpler for you to do even if scary,

Susan Montanaro: 00:18:53

pretend to disassociate

Susan Montanaro: 00:18:55

with, you know, situational, you know, labels or the feeling the victim, the victim bucket that you might find yourself in for sure. Yeah, sure. Yeah. I'm grateful. I don't have that.

Tanya Gill: 00:19:06

I know. And I think it always just starts with the little pieces, though. Like it doesn't mean like, throw your hands up in the air and say, Fuck it, this none of this is my problem anymore. It's impossible to know, you're doing that you're totally in denial.

Susan Montanaro: 00:19:18

You see when I was when I was like, letting go and I finally just like, like, I had been like such a pain in the ass. Like I was always overbearing and over controlling my life of the people in my periphery. I was stressed out by it all the time. I had no boundaries, you know, that was sort of combined with it. There's a lot going on there. And I was just like, and I always found myself

Susan Montanaro: 00:19:47

anxious and we're reactive to everything. I have

Susan Montanaro: 00:19:53

Italian passionate roots. Those are different but when you mix those into someone who's a little cray cray and who's got anxiety It's a big old ugly bucket on any given day, some people find humor in it, some people don't. Most of the time, it gets annoying and old. But surrendering also really quelled a lot of the anxiety that I had. Because I'd be like, scheduled all over the place, or I have so many things going on. And it was chaos to me, I didn't know how was going to work it out. And I don't want to lie about getting out of this to do that. And so that was like this, I was spinning all the time. Once I surrendered, and I just let go, not only like that I physically feel better, what was weird, it was like, things, two different things coming up on the calendar. One thing always inevitably just fell off. Naturally, I didn't even have to cancel anything. I have just watched that when I stopped trying to like control every aspect of my life, things just fell into place. And it was always like the cool stuff that was like staying above the waterline, you know, and I was like, oh, that's friggin awesome. Like, I don't even have to, like figure out a way to like, disappoint this person, or like be the one who's always like canceling or whatever, just like just like go. And then you just get into this new rhythm of, it's nice to be that way. It's nice to not to be a crazy person running around, you know, like, they just had their head chopped off, you know, it's just nice to just relax into things and have a nice life. And that was kind of like the start of that chapter, kind of inspecting boundaries, inspecting my, you know, my lunacy and control. But thank God, thank God, I did, thank God for me. But really, for everyone that's around me.

Tanya Gill: 00:21:37

We never we never experienced that in a vessel like really, unless we have no people in our lives, period. It doesn't happen in isolation, right? But the energy shifts, I think that come from that can make such a huge difference. And what you described like, you know, energetically we call it flow, right? Like, right? Because, again, we go back to what you resist persists, right? So and in your case, the stress and all of the things the body, the hair, all of those pieces were those signs. And then again, it was the reminder around surrendering. And the process is a practice, right? Like, it's not like you can just get to say, You know what, I'm not gonna let this go forever. It Is that intentional process of noticing every day if you're starting to resist or control or micromanage or feel like you need to know and do in every thing. And then that stepping back again, and going, what's mine, mining your own fucking plate? God, I love that

Susan Montanaro: 00:22:47

only. That's your Damn straight. And I'll tell you, I mean, I again, that exercise is beautiful for anyone who's taking that step toward it. Yes, take an inventory. I gotta tell you something. I don't know if it's because I waited so long. Or because I was so sick of myself. I don't really have to check into often with that. It is just this like very natural way of being for me. It was an overnight change. I've never really looked back other than to talk about how brilliant doing it as been. And yeah, I, I don't, yeah, I don't stick my nose in other people's plate much anymore. It doesn't really, you know, where it doesn't belong? I mean, if I'm invited to even sometimes I don't even want to. It's really great.

Tanya Gill: 00:23:30

So great. So tell me, Susan, I'm sure everyone else is going seriously. You just one day decided to surrender. And then that was it. What what what happened?

Susan Montanaro: 00:23:42

You know, I've been doing a lot of work on myself because Like others, I am a survivor of a lot of traumatic early experience in my life. And, you know, I don't hide that I had so much going on from such a young age and then was on my own responsible for myself at such a young age. It was too much to peel back and to like, feel out of that. So I had to keep living. I had to keep a roof over my head. And I had to keep pedaling at a pace that was very unnatural. It was very difficult to unload the junk that had been like on me, all the trauma that had been on me. I actually had to keep carrying it for a really long time. But very slowly in my 20s and my 30s all the way into my 40s like I was always doing at a certain point in time I was I was always doing a little bit of work, meaning I was always reading this person or watching that person and listening to this. I was always really plugged in. And I would it's probably one of the reasons I have my podcast right? I found myself in other people's stories. I found language for my unpleasant experience. Early childhood experiences through lectures and through discussion groups and conversations that people were having in public space, like on TV, on Oprah in books, what have you, I found my, my story about myself in places like in film and independent film, you know, or at least I tapped into the tragedies of those kinds of, you know, films and movies. And so my pain, their pain, you know, it was like a, an equalizer in that regard. And I just kept identifying all these places where I could figure out who the hell I was, and what the hell happened to me. And, and even though it took a long time, or it was, you know, a slow process in articulating and putting language to that my circumstances,

Susan Montanaro: 00:25:45

I would eventually learn to do that.

Susan Montanaro: 00:25:48

And then I would be get it slapped down multiple times, right, because I was still never feeling whole, it was such a process, I go in and out of my out of relationships, I go out of relationships, I, you know, I didn't really, I will say, I didn't really ever pick the wrong person, like maybe one person or two people I should never probably have engaged with in a in a real romantic relationship. And that's okay. Because I still learned something about myself. But I was always searching and always growing and always healing. And it was exhausting. And I was still maintaining myself and I was still taking care of myself and I was still growing in a career I didn't necessarily pick and you know, this, it was like a mouse wheel, and it was still going on. So by the time I came to that day, or that decision to surrender, because I'd heard it so many times, I had understood how I needed to let go of trying to like be in control the way I was, I was mirroring a parental behavior that I had learned and absorbed growing up. And then I was seeing it in family members, and I didn't like it in them. And so I thought, well, don't be such a schmuck, because you know, you look in the mirror, you are not any different, you know, and so anything I was trying to do to hide and to act as if though that's not me, that was bullshit. And so when I did finally let go, it really did change for me overnight, because it was mounting for a really long time. And I was exhausted. And I felt like this has to stop like this, this part has to stop. And so I didn't know it was going to bring the relief it did, I didn't know it was going to bring me to the place that I will actually want it to go. But I was wicked open to it. And so and once I did, I was like,

Tanya Gill: 00:27:40

holy shit. Well, that's great. That's great. It's interesting that you noticed that it took you so long, and the process and how you were absorbing all of this information and possibilities and all of all of this growing and healing from all of the places. And what I hear is that there was also this mounting resistance to surrender as was happening. And it almost sounds like this. You described it. It's like you arrived at a place where you were like, it almost it's like it can't be that bad. I just got to do it now or like it's just time. Yeah, that's what I hear. I hear that it was just time. Yeah.

Susan Montanaro: 00:28:30

It's hard to go through your life carrying your trauma with you. And not knowing how to heal yourself. And trying to do it all by yourself. It's hard. It really is. And so, yeah, I just kept trying things on for size, so to speak, you know, and yeah, you know, I tried, I tried a variety of therapies. It's not like I didn't, but nothing brought me relief. As much as that did. And my Wait, it wasn't over for me. That wasn't the last stop. Oh, boy did I think it was I thought finally she's healed. Oh, my God. She

Tanya Gill: 00:29:09

didn't arrive. What the hell? I didn't arrive.

Susan Montanaro: 00:29:11

I was just one one sector, one little corner of my space. But I'll tell you, I think when I learned that my pain and trauma lived inside my body on a cellular level, when someone told me that I looked at them and I was like, fuck are you talking about? Like, I just, it didn't make any sense. I had no idea what that was supposed to mean. And it would be like a couple of years, I'd be like, What did she say that to me?

Tanya Gill: 00:29:38

Why?

Susan Montanaro: 00:29:39

This was someone I held in high regard. I do hold in high regard and so smart. Like, I don't know what she's talking about. What do you mean that lives inside of me here inside of me? You mean that's why I have gut issues like talking about and it was just it was a whole new evolution and learning of like what that actually meant, and until I understood it, and And then did the work on myself to relieve myself physically of pain and suffering. Then I could say, All right, I have arrived. I've never, I've never really done because I will. I'm curious. And I love continuing to learn about what motivates me and why I'm making certain decisions, because they're not perfect. I'm still a wonderfully imperfect person. But I don't suffer the same way anymore. And that was a game changer. So huge. It's huge. And I have to say, you know, my psychotherapy space, my social workspace, like, Thank God, I did that work for myself on myself. And really, for the people who love me, because I couldn't imagine how they tolerated being in my company some days. And that's just a fact. But yeah, like I I am, so I feel so much more informed in my work now. And I work with patients and clients, it's

Tanya Gill: 00:30:54

cool. It's really cool. Having an education is beautiful having experience is magnificent, being able to marry the two and, and support clients and where they're at, not by not by dumping our stories onto them that the podcast is about creating those connections. But in a session with clients, it's about them. However, them knowing that you too, are on your healing path, and I too, am on my healing paths and that it's never over. Like, if you ever go and find a therapist or a coach or work with anyone who says that they are healed or have it all together, like fucking run,

Susan Montanaro: 00:31:42

absolutely.

Tanya Gill: 00:31:45

Run, run, you're in the process of joining a cult. Yes, yeah. Yes. Right. Like, yeah, and

Susan Montanaro: 00:31:51

I feel like you're right. That's what you know, I think sometimes, and I am very, I'm sure like you very cautious. But I do pick and choose some moments to share a little detail about myself in certain circumstances with patience with clients, to normalize a their experience, but to also give them a little bit of insight into the person who's sitting across from them, and who they're trusting with their story and who's maybe digesting and then bringing back some logic to them or dispensing some advice, some homework, even to them. I think it's important as part of our connection, that they get a better sense of who it is that is speaking to them. I mean, there's a style where, you know, therapists will share literally not a morsel of themselves and good for them. I'm sure their work is brilliant, too. There's people, for everyone out there, I do prefer to give a little bit of myself and bring a little into the situation as appropriate.

Tanya Gill: 00:32:52

As really, and you know, being intentional about sharing pieces of ourselves with our clients is, I think it's important because it does build definitely it builds the relationship in a different way. And I also think that it shows that we are in that common human experience. And self compassion can only be bridged for ourselves when we realize we're part of a common human experience,

Susan Montanaro: 00:33:19

right? And I don't want to be held up on a standard or pedestal because I'm the professional in the space. Not because I can't rise to the occasion of being that professional, but I want to make sure that they do like you said realize I'm a human having a human experience, too. And we all are and so let's just bring the temperature down on it right away.

Tanya Gill: 00:33:40

Do you know and share space to move forward? Beautifully? Yeah, for sure. Okay. Oh, my friends, this has been such an incredible conversation. And I know we could go on for ever.

Susan Montanaro: 00:33:57

We're gonna do part two on my show. Wait, so

Tanya Gill: 00:34:01

friends, make sure you follow Susan montenero streams and detours as well because she's going to interview me and we're going to talk about some dreams and detours over there. Susan, this has been absolutely incredible. Thank you so so much. If you had a closing message to our listeners something to take away what would you tell them

Susan Montanaro: 00:34:25

don't take life so seriously, lighten up a little bit. Be kind to yourself. And when I when I say that I kind of it's kind of part of our theme and our message today of surrendering and letting go just be you be here now. And just keep looking out and know that you can look around you at yourself through this other lens. I think it's super important. Just love on yourself. Yeah.