Leaning In When Someone You Love is Grieving with Heidi Dunstan

Tanya Gill: 00:00:08

Hi friend, I'm Tanya Gill Welcome to Lighten Up and unstuck your what the fuck. Together we explore the ways through life's stickiness moments, and how to live with more peace, joy, love and gratitude. We're going to talk honestly about what isn't easy so you can discover the light within you that will carry you forward. My friend, this podcast is about you in real life, your body, mind and soul, and the opportunity to not only live your best, but shine doing it.

Tanya Gill: 00:00:46

Thank you friends for joining us today. Again, I am so fortunate to have with me Heidi Dunstan. Heidi and I have a tragic, a truly tragic similarity. And I'll let you talk a little bit about that, Heidi, but as a heads up to our listeners, Heidi is a certified grief educator and she's here to help you and help the rest of us understand the way forward in loss because the truth is we all are going to experience it and we don't really know how to deal with it sometimes. Heidi your your business is called Lean into grief. And you. You feel that your purpose is to help other people understand how to lean in and support people when they've lost someone. Thank you so much, Heidi for being here. Thank you.

Heidi Dunstan: 00:01:50

Thank you for having me. Tanya.

Tanya Gill: 00:01:52

I want to start with your WHAT THE FUCK moment? Will you tell us about that?

Heidi Dunstan: 00:02:01

Yeah. So two days after Christmas in 2018. I've heard rumors that my husband by common law husband Mike had planned a surprise birthday party for me. The 28th was my 40th birthday. And you know, I'm not exactly great with surprises. So I found out that I had 40 People coming the next day for my party. And his menu choice was chicken wingsuit cake. And

Tanya Gill: 00:02:26

I'm German guy, but that might not be enough, babe. I love you. Bye. Yeah,

Heidi Dunstan: 00:02:31

exactly. So I suggested we maybe hit up Costco and I thought maybe I could enhance the menu. And while at Costco, he said he wasn't feeling well, he kind of felt like he had the flu. We came home and my vehicle was in the driveway and his truck was or No, his truck was in the driveway. He was driving my vehicle. And he said I'm just going to pull my vehicle up to the parking lot. And so I pulled the car in, brought a load of groceries into the front of the house came out and he'd fully collapsed in the driveway from a massive heart attack and called 911. He was a retired fireman, the fire halls across the street. They were there in three minutes. I had started CPR and an hour later they called Time of death. I'm so sorry.

Tanya Gill: 00:03:15

I am so sorry.

Heidi Dunstan: 00:03:19

You get it? I know.

Tanya Gill: 00:03:21

I do get it. I do get it and you know, hearing other people's stories of loss. My experience of it is always like oh my god, like first of all, the shock second, your soulmate is gone. Third, you're talking about the timing of it all. And it's like fuck me. It's Christmas, your birthday, a party, all the pieces. And your whole world has changed in that moment. Yeah. And you know, that I too am a widow. And my journey was longer ago, my husband died in November of 2007. We were on a family vacation in Mexico. My husband left me poolside in the morning and said I was just going for a walk on the beach. And the commotion around the pool that nobody else seemed to see but me indicated something was wrong. So I took my baby, eight months old, left my four year old playing an activity with another mom and walked over to see what was going on. And they were pulling him out of the water. And I threw and as I walked up, this woman looked at me and she's like somebody drowned. And I threw Isaac into this woman's arms, and I went running down to the beach and they wouldn't let me near him and they were pulling on me. And again, I knew he was gone. Like I could see like it's an interesting thing. Death you don't realize Here's how much Spirit lives in someone until you until it's absent. And like you, and like anyone who loses someone they love I think we all just our world fucking stops and also implodes and is moving so fast at the exact same time. And, and, you know, I personally had a lot of people come to me for help in the grieving process. And what I really, really love and respect about you is that you are there to help people help

Heidi Dunstan: 00:05:38

those Grievers.

Tanya Gill: 00:05:41

I know, in my own experience, I always said I'm going to write a book called stupid things people say when John dies, because people said some stupid things. And, you know, I don't think that it is their fault. It's just that they too, are grieving. And they don't know what to say. Yeah. I agree. So how do you help people with that?

Heidi Dunstan: 00:06:13

One, I talk about grief. And I talked about it not just being when somebody dies, I talk about a just being loss, it could be relationship loss could be health and change, health of changing health, changing finances, it could be miscarriage, things like that. Pet loss, empty nest syndrome. So I educate people about grief, because again, we don't talk about it. And then I talk about where people are at, and the fact that they're not okay, the fact that they don't want to be fixed. The fact that you know, we need to actually hold space, and something as simple as changing the word so instead of asking a Griever How are you asking How's today? Because how are you means you're supposed to the person supposed to answer their good fine or Okay, and there none of those?

Tanya Gill: 00:06:59

Oh, my God, Heidi, you know what? I always used to say I was fine. Do you know what fine stands for? Fucked on the inside. Nice exterior? Yeah, exactly. That's what people want to people want so desperately to see. Grievers go back to normal, but they don't? Like they don't recognize that. That normal is never going to be what it was. Yeah, exactly. Right. Yep. I agree.

Heidi Dunstan: 00:07:26

So you know, I teach people like how to hold space and how to, you know, when when you see somebody crying to say, instead of saying, Don't cry, say, I see you I see you're hurting, you know, don't cry, it'll make me cry. Well, that means it's about you and not them. And, you know, or even just avoidance statements, like at least they're not suffering anymore, or at least that with God now. And it's like the person right in front of you is suffering. So,

Tanya Gill: 00:07:56

so a couple of things that you shared. The first is, at least there with God. Now. That's a really tough one. That was a real trigger for me, because we didn't have John grew up with a faith base. And right before he died, he actually removed himself from the church registry very intentionally and said, You know, I just don't feel aligned with that faith. And that was the church registry from his childhood. So we weren't actively religious, or participating in any kind of faith base when he passed. After he died, a lot of people wanted to well, and they gave me books about their faith, and they wanted, you know, to talk about how he was with God. And I was very clear that that was not a message I wasn't, I was comfortable with having with my kids, because they didn't have an understanding of God. And the day of his death, he actual or the day of his funeral, sorry, the day of his funeral. Someone in my home actually commented that he was with God. And, and my son, who was four overheard it, and that night, he actually said, Can we please phone God? And I was like, what, what, what? And he's like, Well, I want to talk to dad. And if dad's there with him, like, can we and I was like, Holy f like, this is another layer of conversation, right? So understanding that context, too, is also really super important.

Heidi Dunstan: 00:09:31

When I even say to people, like I have a number of friends who are have very deep faith and death rocks, your sense of faith, like and so when somebody passes, I wait until they tell me where where they're at with God because some people are really mad at God. And it isn't my place to tell them you know, and I just look at it saying like, we just need to see these Grievers. You know, and When you don't have words, that's when you say, I don't have anything to say, but You're important to me and I'd like you. I'd like to be with you if you're comfortable with it. But say nothing is deafening. Right that that silence is deafening and just seeing somebody and I also talk about judgment and grief. Because grief is as individuals are fingerprint. And we judge people how they grieve. We don't judge people how they celebrate. If you watch America's Got Talent, and you watch the golden buzzers, they all celebrate differently, and we never judge that. But we judge how people live in pain.

Tanya Gill: 00:10:41

Oh, my God. Oh, that is such a powerful statement. Heidi, we judge how people live in pain. And it is true. I am. I know I experienced judgment. I experienced isolation from couple friends. I experienced situations where people said they would never date me because I was John Gil's widow. I experienced people who judged me when I started dating. And when I continued dating, and when I started in ended a lot of relationships because I was like, nope, but I wouldn't give up trying. Yeah, yeah, there's there's a lot of judgment in that. You know, it's funny you say about how people don't know what to say. And I remember one of the things that I had a lot of people say to me, that actually really triggered me in some ways, but I couldn't tell them that was when they would say things like, tell me what I can do. And it's like, a, like, I'm working on breathing and trying to keep my kids fed. I actually can't tell you what I need, like I can't. And so you know, I think one of the things that Grievers can learn are people who are supporting Grievers because the other thing we have to recognize is that other people may be grieving too, right. So in my own grief, I had these Grievers who were also trying to grieve their own stuff like you did. And, and it's like, the invitation of just being present, like you said, is so powerful. You know, my best friend showed up every single morning with a bagel and a hot chocolate for months. And she would sit on the couch and cry. And that was she. And she just like seriously sit there and let me breathe. Yeah. That's so powerful.

Heidi Dunstan: 00:12:47

Yeah. And it's about reaching out knowing that grief doesn't have a timeline, because I believe grief is love. And I will love Mike to the last breath I take, certainly they will grieve Him to the last breath I take. And so I appreciate it. When people reach out on his I call it his wing anniversary, the day he got his wings and say, Hey, I'm thinking about you today or on my birthday going. They don't say happy birthday, they say I'm sending you a hug on your birthday, you know that they acknowledged the fact that those aren't easy days for me anymore. And they just they witness it. And they you know, I know that they don't naturally remember it. I know that they've put a note in their calendar. But I appreciate that they've done that, that, that three years later, I'm still getting those messages and that people go, Hey, she's still hurting. And it can make such a big difference. Because those days come and they're hard. And, you know, they can be years later. And I know people 10 years later, and they're like, nobody remembers my husband. Nobody remembers my my best friend that died or my sibling. And when we can just honor that by just putting a note in our calendar that reoccurs once a year. It can make such a huge difference in seeing somebody on a on a hard day. Yeah,

Tanya Gill: 00:14:02

yeah, you know, if that's a if that's a piece of advice that I I think that every listener needs to hear, put it in your calendar, and just send some love to that person that day. I know for me, like, we're, well my youngest turned 15 A couple of weeks ago. So we're going on to our 15th and I don't call it an anniversary. I actually call it death day. And some people are startled by that. Like I know you call it the day he got his wings. For me, it's death day. And we do we all have certain days. For me. It's his birthday, which is exactly one month before his death day. So the window between his birthday and his death day generally are a little harder and stickier for me. And I've learned how to lean into that instead of away from it. It is interesting though, that I I think that there's an assumption for a lot of people that you get over losing someone, and you don't ever get over it, you move through it. Like you said, I will love John, until I take my last breath. And yes, I am fortunate enough to have found my second soulmate in this life. But it doesn't in any way, minimize my love for John. Yeah. And, and, you know, for me to like, it was important to me that I would never partner with someone who didn't accept John as being a part of our life. And I'm so grateful because Peter even had, surprisingly, unbeknownst to me, it was a little overwhelming, but he actually had vows in our wedding vows to John. So, you know, to me, that speaks to understanding that, that love doesn't die, and that he's a part of us still, and, and that we do continue to move through it.

Heidi Dunstan: 00:16:14

I, I too, have moved into the dating scene and have met some people along the way that were great people, but they were like, I can't deal with the fact that you're still love your husband. And I'm like, they have children. There's this new men, they have children. And I'm like, so when you had your second child, did you stop loving your first? And they're like, No. And I said, What's the difference? I said, love grows. And I said, if you can see how much I love Mike, you can actually see how much I could possibly love you. And if you can't see that as an opportunity and something to embrace, then we aren't meant to be together.

Tanya Gill: 00:16:58

And you know, Heidi, that is that speaks to your love and your own personal strength and your knowing, right? That is your knowing of what you deserve. And and the right person will come and accept and understand and embrace and not see themselves as living in the shadow of a dead person. But instead see themselves as an opportunity to make a friends that they never knew. Yeah. Right. And and if done well, and I think we've done it well, because Peter has two children. So we have a blended family. We were on a hike last summer, and we passed a person on a trail who looked like John. And the kids turned around and looked at me with giant eyes after we passed him and they were like, he looks like John. And I was like, oh my god, he did. But what was so crazy about it is they know John to be a part of our family in such a way that they were like holy, like whoa. Right. But it wasn't like it was a huge disruption in our lives. It was just like a cool like, hey, it's kind of feels like John's with us. That's right. Yeah. So and you know, for people who don't know what to say to someone who's grieving, you can remember to like even the stories of that person. Don't be afraid to share those. Yeah. Like at our wedding, Jon's best friend attended. And one of my son's favorite memories was that the boys sat with him in the hammock. And he told them stories about my husband is a teenager, my first husband. And like, what a gift that is, it is it and it is the memories that we have to that we really only have to hold on to right?

Heidi Dunstan: 00:19:05

Well, I believe it's it speaks to legacy, which I think my next book is about, it's about Mike's legacy. And the importance of legacy and our duty as people who are carrying the torch of John and Mike's legacies is to carry that that and it speaks beautifully on how you've done that to go. You know, this isn't just something I'm going to put in a box and I'll open it up once or twice a year. It's like you've he's intertwined in your life, he's still you've kept his legacy alive by choosing to do the things that you've done and you've done them intentionally. Because it's important to you and it's important to your children and to your family. And legacy is is so critical. I think it's it's done us a disservice when we don't find places and spaces to honor our people.

Tanya Gill: 00:19:54

honoring our people. And I think we also need to recognize That honoring our people is done in different ways to, like I know, for me, our experience of scattering, John's remains, we did a hike and scattered John's remains on what was his favorite hike in his favorite National Park, which is Waterton International Peace Park. And it was a hike that I had never been able to do, because quite honestly, I wasn't physically fit enough. And so the first time I got to do that hike was carrying his remains on my back. And we were surrounded with loved ones. And there were a group of us that went up, and we scattered his remains, and, and I chose not to have him in a cemetery, but his parents wanted to have a plaque for him in the Waterton cemetery, which made sense to me too. But even the decisions around that. I mean, it's very hard, because because everyone has an opinion, on what should be done with remains, what should what a funeral should look like, what all of the things, everyone has an opinion. And it's really important to just honor those those close people who maybe knew not only what they need, but also what that deceased person would have want. Right? And then, you know, you talk about legacy and how over time, people forget. And that has been an experience for me because he was a pillar in the community. He was a crown prosecutor, they closed the courthouse when they found out because the judges couldn't go forward. Everyone was in shock. It was, it was a big deal. And now, you know, some people know I'm John Gil's widow, and some people don't even know who John Gill was. And that also brings up different pieces of stickiness to write, and then you kind of realize that the people he's meant to be to remain in the memories of are the ones that will. But that you're writing a book in legacy is also so beautiful. When is it? Where are you at in your writing,

Heidi Dunstan: 00:22:25

more than half I'm hoping to get it to the editor in a month. And basically, it's my story of losing Mike and the legacies I carry on of him. And then also 10 of our friends have shared the impacts of losing him and how they've interwoven pieces of him in their lives. And really just a great tribute. Mike was a beautiful soul. Like he just, he was 24 years my senior. So he was in his 60s, he was just larger than life, a big kid love, like, I have photos of him in restaurants with cloth napkins on his head, making a nine year old child smile, like he just, he was just that guy, right? Like, when I asked him, Why did you choose to be a fireman, he was like, I was gonna be a cop or a fireman music. Firemen have water fights, I thought it'd be more fun. No, like, he was just right, like, and so I just, I want a place in space where he can be honored. And I mean, there was hundreds and 1000s of people that love Mike, the book could be an encyclopedia set, sort of find just 10 was was it was hard to slim that one down, but just find a place where we can honor him. And then give some examples of people to people because lots of people think legacy should be like a namesake or on a building or a statue or a big scholarship fund. And and I believe it can be those little moments, it could be that flower you plant in your garden every year. It could be the the recipe that you make, because that's what your mom always made. It could be, you know, the records that you listen to, because that's what your sibling did, and finding places in spaces where we can honor our people and share the stories and share the laughter and share that share the tears to

Tanya Gill: 00:24:07

Oh, that's so beautiful. And oh, that is so beautiful. In the simplest ways we do share legacy. We do we share legacy in the simplest ways. Doesn't have to be big. It doesn't have to be costly. And it doesn't have to be some a monument. Right? It's true. It is those little things and can I share? Can I share a really funny legacy story with you? I'd love it. So in my family room, I have this big picture of John. And he's standing in front of a river and he's got a pair of blue. They're not even crocs actually they're called holy souls, but they look like crocs, so blue crocs on his feet. And it just captures him so beautifully. Like he loved nature, but he also had a little bit of a goofy side and whatever it was just It's an awesome picture. So after he died, that was the photo that I blew up for his memorial. And then it's on our family room wall. And since then, those blue crocs have been a part of our life, I have never put them away. People have thrown them on at the back door. So many people have walked in John shoes, it's not even funny. Awesome. And then on Sunday, we have a new dog. And, and she kind of got a hold of the blue Crocs and kinda to the shit out of them. Now I have all the pieces. And I'm actually planning to try and duct tape them together. Because it actually just makes the story even better and better. Yeah, but Peter, my, my husband was like, waiting for reaction. And I just went and gathered the pieces and put them on the shelf. And I was like, Okay, we'll see if we can fix them. And he was just like, waiting, waiting, thinking I was gonna. And I said to him, I said, we've had 14 and a half years with these shoes. How many feet have been in them, like, this is amazing. And they're not destroyed, I'm going to find a way to fix them that like, I'm so glad I didn't put them away. Because people know those are John's and people choose to stick their feet in them, and walk out to the hot tub or walk out to the garage to get a drink or putter around in the yard. And it's not just our family members, it's been our friends. And it's been like people have experienced the legacy of him by throwing on a silly pair of blue

Heidi Dunstan: 00:26:43

crocs. Yeah. So cool, right?

Tanya Gill: 00:26:47

Like, it is so cool. It is so cool. Tell me how you continue the legacy in your life.

Heidi Dunstan: 00:26:58

So Mike, being a first responder, he, but he was also a man who loved random acts of kindness. And so anytime we were at a 711, or a grocery store, whatever, if there was a first responder in line, he'd pay their tab. And oftentimes, he'd find a way to do it that they wouldn't know. And so I still do that. And I've the first time I got to do it, it was probably about four or five months after Mike passed. So as I'm sure you know, that that's I call it the apocalypse of apocalyptic time your zombie. And

Tanya Gill: 00:27:32

I was made to call it That's a good name.

Heidi Dunstan: 00:27:36

I was reading a lot of the social media posts and starting to see how people were remembering Mike and how they were embracing his legacy. And I was like, I want some of that. I'm tired of feeling like fucking shit. And I was going to teach a class at a college and I stopped to pick up some treats for the students because it was early morning, which isn't my forte even before grief, but after grief, it was even worse. And lo and behold, there's two cops standing behind me. And so I paid their bill without them knowing and cops being cops, they saw me in the parking lot waved and I'm bawling in the car, like just totally felt closer to Mike felt the fog dissipating. And it was a few months later that I was shopping with my mom, we were going to actually buy your house down south and picking up a big meat order. And an RCMP officer came in. And my mom had gone outside and I paid for his order. He was right behind me. And I just said to the lady, hey, like, do you mind covering putting his tab on mine? And I come out and we had a big order. So I had to take the cart back in. So I blew my own cover. And I had to talk to this RCMP officer on my way out. And my mom was now given me that like, What the fuck did you do? And so I said, I paid his bill. And she was like, Well, why did you do that? And I was like, that's what Mike always did. And it was the look on her face. I mean, I was crying and she started to cry. And she saw that my grief had changed that it then shifted right? Like, was it gone? No. But it was, it had changed. She knew that I was trying to find a way to make meaning. And I mean, you have to remember that. My mom walked with me on all those hard days she was there. I mean, I called her to the hospital as as I was in the police car following the ambulance, right. I was she watched her daughter endure a pain that she hadn't experienced yet herself and one that she could never take away. And so to see that interaction, it was just like and now I get to do it all the time. It happens so frequently and to buy a coffee and a doughnut or you know, a cop car behind me in a drive thru. It's like out there totaled mine, like without question and it just and Mike always did it. I always asked why he did it. And he said, I like knowing that these people know that they're seen not just when the car when the truck rolls up, not just during the emergencies, that people see them in the community, they see that there's value in them, he's like, it is really hard when we only get seen on the hard days. So I'm honored to be able to do it for him. It was so beautiful. But it's cool.

Tanya Gill: 00:30:26

It isn't. It's such a cool way to continue Mike's legacy in it. And you know, and what I love about it is, is it's sharing the love, right? That's what it's really about. It's about sharing the love and saying, I see you we are a common humanity. We are in this together. And that's where compassion comes from compassion comes from just seeing other humans as having their human experiences. And then recognizing that we too, are humans having our human experience, too.

Heidi Dunstan: 00:30:59

Yeah. And it it, you know, it's he never most of these people never know, he was he walked the lines with them. They didn't know he was a fireman that he spent 30 years with Calgary fire, like, no clue. But he's just like I see you. And I want you to be seen right now. And it didn't have to be big. And it's, it's really a cool way to be able to fill my cup in a gentle way and embrace, like, just have those moments. And I know, Mike still watches over me. He's a part of my big part of my life now. And I know that on some of those hard days, he puts those first responders behind me in line or in front of me in line. And I know he does it so that it can warm my heart and remind me that what's important, right?

Tanya Gill: 00:31:49

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I get that, you know, people set people have different beliefs. I believe that John has become one of my angels. I know that he watches over me, I know that he supports us. I know that he loves our life. And he's in it in all the what the apps that we're in now and moving forward. And he also does leave us signs. Great. But the other thing that's so cool is that, you know, you talk about feeling that connection to him in those moments, right and, and that's the other piece of legacy is that we get that opportunity to really feel that connection when we actively make a choice to spread love. Like that's the cool thing is like that's that is the beauty of legacy you spread love, you don't need like the accolades, you don't need the anything you just need to, to keep scattering the seeds of love seeing people recognizing them and just being exactly what Mike said, I see you. Yeah, I see you. And what's gorgeous about it is, you know, with with lean into grief, and being a certified grief educator, you're teaching people how to say and show up for people in grieving. And find the right way to say I see you. Yeah.

Heidi Dunstan: 00:33:27

Yeah, my hope is, is that you know, somebody, a lot of times when we're dealing with Grievers, it's those moments where we want to run away, we want to say I'm sorry for your loss and send the flowers go to the funeral and get it. And my hope is that those moments when you feel like running away that I teach you the tools on how to lean in, and be able to see somebody so that we can all agree with grace.

Tanya Gill: 00:33:53

It's a gift that you don't just give that Griever it's a gift to give yourself.

Heidi Dunstan: 00:33:58

Grief is love and love is connection. And so as soon as you can connect with somebody, I mean, I can remember all the people that disappeared. But I can tell you, I embrace all the people that embraced me. And I was grateful I had I had angels that I had people that disappeared. But I also had angels that showed up that I didn't expect me to they showed up really beautifully. And they are ones that I treasure and cherish for the rest of my life. They showed up on the days when I wasn't able to show up for myself, I was broken. And I needed to be seen I needed to be embraced. And I don't I want other people who are experiencing loss to be able to have that opportunity as well. To have their friends and loved ones show up in ways that they didn't expect. You know, to be able to go to work and have somebody say the right thing instead of the, you know, you're distracted or you're not doing your job right or, you know, acknowledging Hey and Glad you showed up to work and wearing pants, because I know you're grieving and it's hard as hell. Like, it's, it's time that grief shows up at our tables, it's time that we start to see it. And I think COVID has taught us that grief is everywhere. And it isn't just about when somebody dies. But I think we can really start to start to embrace people and say, Hey, I see that this is hard. I see that that's a significant loss for you. And I want you to know, you don't have to do it alone.

Tanya Gill: 00:35:31

One of the things I notice is that grief is never sexy. Grief is not sexy at all. Nobody's like, let's Billy up and talk about grief and loss. Now. They don't it's it's like it's like it is it's a turn your tail and fuck in bolt, because it's awkward. It's uncomfortable. It's not fun. It's sticky in it and, and everybody's experience is different. I really appreciate that. Earlier in our conversation, you pointed out that grief is not just the death of someone you love. Because a lot of people think that grief is is kind of exclusive to death of someone you love. And like you said, the loss of a pet, divorce, a job change a health issue. All of these things are different kinds of grief and loss, and we experience them and we still grieve.

Heidi Dunstan: 00:36:30

And we grieve the loss of normal, we grieve the loss of, you know, people, I hear stories all the time of kids or even adults that have endured trauma at the hands of their parents. They grieve the loss of a parent that didn't show up the way they needed them to. Right, like grief is everywhere. Our kids grieve beautifully. Toddlers, when their pet rock disappears, or their balloon floats away or their ice cream hits the ground. They grieve beautifully. And if we could talk to them in that grief of saying, Hey, that was important to you, I see you're sad. Instead of let me get you a new pet rock. Let's get you a new ice cream. I acknowledge the grief, you can actually work your grief muscles so that when you're dealing with these bigger losses, and then the other side of grief is turn the Wi Fi off when you've got teenagers. That's grief too. They don't grieve as beautifully as a toddler. They usually have some nastier words for you. But that's grief too. And instead of being like, you know, not acknowledging their feelings, acknowledge them. And it'll help you to move through some of these hard times with these people that you love and care about that are hurting. It's true.

Tanya Gill: 00:37:41

And grief is for the living proof is not for the dead. It is it is the path of choosing how to continue to live forward. And we are human beings. We are made of love. We are born of love, we die of love, we return to love. And all we really want is to love and be loved. And in grief. That's what we need even more even though we don't know how to ask for it. And I know for me like sometimes I felt myself pushing people away. And I was in a real struggle because I was like, I need space. But I need you. I need space, but I need you. And I'm fortunate enough that I've had people who have been able to do that dance with me over time. Thank God they've been there. Thank you to those of you have been so patient with me. Thank you, thank you. Because it is it's a dance, right? It is a dance and and it's also recognizing that other people are grieving too. And that we're in this really messed up dance together. So sometimes we Tango sometimes it's a fucking mosh pit. Right? Sometimes I'm by myself dancing in the closet. Yeah. But it is. It's like it's there's an ebb and flow to it. Right.

Heidi Dunstan: 00:39:10

And I think I think as Grievers we armor up when we go outside. I know I did. Oh, yeah. It meant that there was times that I wasn't able to be seen. And I mean, after Mike died, I lost 30 pounds in the first three months. And people will and I got some weight on me. Tanya, I could use stand to lose a bit more even people were like, You look fabulous. Like you look so amazing. And I only have one friend who could acknowledge you haven't been eating

Tanya Gill: 00:39:36

right? isn't totally people like, oh, he looks so good. Or how about oh my god, or are you okay? Yeah. Like, I'm seeing changes and these worry me.

Heidi Dunstan: 00:39:48

Yeah, like, I mean, don't get me wrong. I could stand to lose the weight. But just to say hey, like, you've endured a lot of stress and stress causes weight loss, what's going on? Like, how can we do You know, when my friend was like, it's gotta be hard to be eating by yourself. And I was like, Yeah, I hate it. She's like, I'd like to have you over for dinner, I'll bring you dinner. Like, and I'd like to eat with you. And why don't you come for a sleepover and just brought company because she acknowledged the fact that I was lonely. You know, because there's a ton of loneliness and grief, especially in those early days, weeks and months. And so, step up, and when you know that they're lonely, stet lean in and say, let's do something different. If you know that somebody talks to their mom every day on their drive home phone, say, hey, I want to talk talk to you right now. So that that ride home isn't quiet. We just deserve to be seen. And I think our relationships with people will be better. You know, when I look at how many Grievers ended up with a whole new set of friends, because they just don't feel like they're seen by those old people, and it isn't out of malice or ill intent. It really is because the lives have changed, and the education isn't there. When somebody can go, Hey, I see you. You grieve differently than me. But I see that you're grieving. And I just, I want to be with you. And let go of the judgment. Like that judgment piece is so big, I believe judgment is creeps kryptonite, when we judge yourself judge ourselves, it just really stops the process of being able to move through the emotions. Just embrace each other and see that grief is love. And when there's deep grief, its customers deep love. Wouldn't hurt if we didn't love our people.

Tanya Gill: 00:41:41

It is the ultimate price we pay. Right? It's the ultimate plate price we pay for love. But would you do it again? Yeah, love is priceless. And it's worth it.

Heidi Dunstan: 00:41:57

It is. And I think when we can see each other in those moments and places and spaces and honor that, you know, it'll start to have and be able to support each other, it will dissolve those things like widows clubs, because the widows clubs are there because we feel like that's where we connect, because we feel seen there. And I would love to see those clubs dissipate. So that people go I see I see your grieving. Not to say I don't find value in them. I do. But I really would love it that all those women and men in those groups say I've got people that got me. I got people that see me. We don't need a special club just because our spouse died.

Tanya Gill: 00:42:42

Yeah, yes, yes, we don't need a special club. We don't need closed doors that we can hide behind to actually grieve openly, we can do it with the people that we love in our life and in our whole space. Because grief isn't always unraveling and bawling. Sometimes it's hysterically laughing your ass off, because he stuffed the shed full in a disaster area. And then in the spring, when you open the shed door and everything tumbles out, you're like, focus on even here to fix it because he was gone. Right? You laugh. And then and that's the other thing. Like when you get to a space where you can make jokes a little bit about having lost your your person that creates another level of discomfort. So that's when you also have to say I see you and I can laugh with you. Because yeah, you know, you have to be able to share that space too.

Heidi Dunstan: 00:43:41

Yeah, I mean, Mike, Mike was the fixer guy. He was a general contractor when ship broken the house after he died. I was like, You're a real deck for dying. Like, and people were like, This was months after and they were like, What am I? How we talked to each other before? You know, like, I'm not gonna stop talking to him the way that we talked before. Like, it just, it's about being real. And it's about saying, Hey, this is where it's at. And, you know, it's, I mean, even when I did Mike's eulogy, the pastor said, I'm glad I spoke before you he's like, because you had people laughing You had people crying, you had them laughing crying at the same time. And I was like, because that's how Mike and I were. Yeah, and not gonna let it be anything other than that. You know, and we just get to acknowledge and carry on this great relationships that we have with our people and say, hey, it's allowed to have this space on in the in the living in the now.

Tanya Gill: 00:44:40

And that is actually the most beautiful gift of legacy is being able to share space in whatever is with those other living beings. Yeah. Because it is the grief is about the living, right. And so it's being able to share that. Oh my gosh, Heidi, if people want to continue this conversation with you, how do they get in touch with you?

Heidi Dunstan: 00:45:07

Visit my website Heididunstan.ca H e i d i d u n s t a n.ca or checkout, lean into grief on Instagram or Facebook or I'm often on clubhouse as well.

Tanya Gill: 00:45:20

Amazing. Amazing. I will make sure that we have all of your contact information in the show notes. Thank you before we close, what is your greatest word of wisdom to our audience? If they have a friend who is grieving? What is the thing that you would suggest they go and? Or what is the thing you would suggest they do?

Heidi Dunstan: 00:45:45

Love them exactly where they're at. Think about it outside the box. It's the little things that make a difference. My neighbor showed up the day after Mike died and he embraced me while the firemen were working on on the driveway. He showed up with the Costco size box in good Kleenex. He said, Hey, we live in a townhouse complex. Leave the garbage on the step we'll take it to the bin. fill those spaces in places in a beautiful way. Show up lean in those moments where it's uncomfortable and you want to step out, that's when you're meant to step in. And be there for your person so that you can embrace that connection. It will allow us all to grieve with grace.

Tanya Gill: 00:46:24

grieve with grace. Heidi, you are such a beautiful soul. Oh my gosh, I'm so grateful to share space with you. And I am so grateful for being able to help our listeners in this because people don't know what to say. And everybody who grieves does go into that fine mode. Fucked on the inside nice exterior. So showing up and being there for them is the power of it.

Heidi Dunstan: 00:46:55

It is yes.

Tanya Gill: 00:46:56

Oh my god. Thank you Heidi, you are so awesome.