4 Archetypes of Men with Dr. Peter Kellett

Dr. Kellett: 00:00:00

I think one of the things that I've sort of discovered in my own men's work journey Yeah, was there were a couple of guys called Morin Gillette, who articulated the mature masculine archetypes. And, and then anybody's kind of had some exposure to men's workspaces. It's all familiar with them. The four archetypes are king, Warrior, magician and lover. And I have to say that as a man who also did a lot of gender studies, initially when I heard these I, I kind of reacted to them myself because they seemed like it was an extension of Falmouth, masculinity, or maybe misogyny and the implying that men were supposed to be believers or warriors or things like that. But as I've grown, and as I've learned, to look at this, we can think of the archetype of the king, for example, is about leadership in general. And what's a good king? A good king is a benevolent king. A good king cares about all the people in his kingdom.

Tanya Gill: 00:01:11

What does Simon Sinek say? Good leaders, that leaders eat last,

Dr. Kellett: 00:01:16

yeah, good. Leaders eat last. And it's really

Tanya Gill: 00:01:21

the, the king is the leader,

Dr. Kellett: 00:01:24

the king is the leader. But it's not just about being a leader, in many ways, is not leading by themselves. They're leaving in conjunction with everybody else. So if we were to apply that archetype to a family, a man a family, that doesn't mean that the king or the head of the household is they might like, All right, yeah, is in charge or telling people what to do, or is trying to control their, their wife and their kids or anything else. It's that they care about lifting everybody up in, in their kingdom, I guess, which is basically their orbit their orbit, or, and the same thing could be in the workplace or anything

Tanya Gill: 00:02:06

else. Within that orbit. Yeah, it can be the so I'm saying you're standing behind when you're returning your bottles for recycling, what people

Dr. Kellett: 00:02:16

refer to as toxic masculinity, is really what they're reacting to, is the oppressive and controlling, okay. And I think sometimes people miss read this idea of leadership as being I'm supposed to be in charge, and everybody has to listen to me. But good leaders actually working with everybody and as getting everybody's input, or whatever, and everybody matters, and everybody matters, and then a relationship, that means you're co leaders, right? It's a benevolent co dictatorship. And the kids are small. And as they get bigger, you basically are, it hasn't been elenco dictatorship. And as they get bigger, you start including them more in the discussion on how you're gonna lead things. So family.

Tanya Gill: 00:03:04

And so all the time that I was a single parent, it was just a dictatorship. Yes. So,

Dr. Kellett: 00:03:14

so like the immature, the immature Ching is somebody who is a tyrant, right? You know, they're trying to control things, or, or they're on the other side, the weak claim, which, initially, you might react to acts as sort of sign saying, I'm not strong enough, and yada, yada. But as a leader, you also have to have some backbone, you have to stand up for what matters as well. Right. The other archetypes warrior, I think that a lot of people immediately associate bar with the idea of going to war, fighting that way. And, again, a warrior, that is mature warrior is one who is approaching that almost with love in many ways, because they are maybe defending protective protective, they're being protective of their family of their country or whatever. But they're not abusing that power. They, they are. They are doing using force when it's necessary. And it's kind of like the line from the Karate Kid where Daniel last? asked Mr. Miyagi, about, you're going to teach me how to fight and he says that way you think you're teaching, I'm teaching you and he said, and Daniel says, Well, I'm learning karate, so I don't have to fight. So now you're getting in. So being strong as a warrior is not about abusing your power. It's about being strong enough that you don't have to do things. And

Tanya Gill: 00:04:55

that's why I loved Taekwondo, and that when the boys were in taekwondo,

Dr. Kellett: 00:04:59

yeah, and I think that anybody who's done martial arts knows it's about discipline, it's about respect. It's about recognizing the power of what you're being taught and restraint and that power is is valued. The immature architects of that would be like the Grand standard bully,

Tanya Gill: 00:05:21

you know. And the and in many ways,

Dr. Kellett: 00:05:28

sometimes we see in the media, the warrior being the grand standard bully, or the one who is the as kind of like the hero tomb is also sometimes miss mislabeled, because the hero, sometimes it's focused on their own my own glory, as opposed to looking and seeing after everybody, right.

Tanya Gill: 00:05:51

So I'm just gonna say, though, that that's why, though Will Smith slap thing was so confusing to people? Because I think some people saw what he did as being mature masculine, some people saw it as being immature, masculine. And some people thought he was being a mature warrior, and some people thought he was being an immature warrior.

Dr. Kellett: 00:06:16

Well, my take on it would be that he reacted in anger in the moment from an emotional response.

Tanya Gill: 00:06:26

And it was actually protective of James

Dr. Kellett: 00:06:30

protective Jada, but also potentially feeling like his family had been shamed in some way, or that his wife had been offended.

Tanya Gill: 00:06:41

And that the slap

Dr. Kellett: 00:06:43

came from a place of trauma. I mean, and I know enough about Will Smith's background to know that he also had an abusive father. And,

Tanya Gill: 00:06:51

and, you know, I

Dr. Kellett: 00:06:53

think there are messages given to men, they're supposed to be violent, to protect their family. And they shouldn't let anybody walk over them and all these sorts of things. But sometimes, the more mature thing would have been to show restraint.

Tanya Gill: 00:07:09

And address it later. You know, a different one, because because,

Dr. Kellett: 00:07:16

in many ways, what he did by doing that, as you know, maybe Chris Rock's joke might have been viewed as inappropriate by many people. But in that moment, when he hit this rock, he immediately crossed the line and made him the problem and not push rock.

Tanya Gill: 00:07:37

But again, like, I'm not excusing it, but you just kind of wonder, like, was he even present in his body when that happened? Like, was he in such a trauma response? That it was like, because that happens.

Dr. Kellett: 00:07:54

I think it was a trauma response. I don't think he was truly present to the moment. But that was an example was not an example of mature warrior. That was, that was more of a reaction. And you know, and then the other archetypes that we talked about the lover, and the magician

Tanya Gill: 00:08:17

and the magician, sorry, not the Joker the magician. I'm sorry.

Dr. Kellett: 00:08:21

And I love you. And a lover in this case is not necessarily about sex, although that might be part of one is. It's really, it's about as the mature masculine, it's about loving everything is loving the world. It's loving, expressing love to your family, your friends, your community. It's, it's recognizing the beauty in everything.

Tanya Gill: 00:08:50

Which is what met a man?

Dr. Kellett: 00:08:51

Yeah, in many ways is what I'm trying to get up with Batman, and we'll talk about that archetype in a minute. But

Tanya Gill: 00:09:01

I think that the immature form

Dr. Kellett: 00:09:06

or that is the addicted lover, which I think the person who's having serial affairs, the person who is compulsively pursuing sex, or porn or lists those things to try and feel whole. Basically, they're in the realm of the hungry ghosts are trying to fill a hole somehow, right? That's, that's more of an immature

Tanya Gill: 00:09:31

lover lover. Um, and so, yeah, what about Okay, so what about men who don't have sex? Like, you know, I've had some clients who said, like, we just haven't had sex for a really, really long time, and I really want sex and I really need sex. So there's the other side of like, men who don't want to have sex is that do you think that's in the immature lover? There's like that could be complex. So

Dr. Kellett: 00:10:05

Well, I think it's conservative in mature forms called the impotence form. But I think that the thing that is leading to that could be multifactorial. It could be actual physical impotence, it could be that they have focused on porn too much, and it's affected their attraction profile, and maybe affected their ability to be aroused. Because that's happening for a lot of men are using porn on a regular basis, it could be that they are feeling less than in some other way. Maybe they are not feeling successful in life, maybe they've gained a lot of weight, maybe they're, yeah, maybe they feel inadequate in some way. And that is affecting their sense of confidence in pursuing sexuality. And, you know, I think there's, there's might have been all kinds of different things at play, I think it's gonna be different for each person. But I think it would be important in each relationship for people to explore, like, what's going on. For them, it is possible that there are certainly some people who have less sexual desire or less less libido than others. And another thing to keep in mind could be a biological thing as well, although most impotence and issues related to that are more psychological. But we also know the men's testosterone drops with each year that goes by. And we also know that in society right now, there are a lot of forever chemicals around which are also impacting testosterone levels, and a lot of men well, and medications,

Tanya Gill: 00:11:52

right. You know, like, there, we know we're in a mental health crisis, there is no harm in having medication to help balance you out if you need it. And you know, there are lots of men who are on medication for depression and anxiety, and that also impacts it.

Dr. Kellett: 00:12:10

Absolutely. Men who are on antidepressants that could be affecting sexual desire for sure, it certainly can affect their enjoyment of sex. And that can be very frustrating for them as well, because it could lead to more impotence issues that could lead to delayed ejaculation like could lead to all kinds of

Tanya Gill: 00:12:28

mystical stuff you talk about in your men's health class.

Dr. Kellett: 00:12:33

Yeah, and because basically, what what happens with an antidepressant is a serotonin reuptake inhibitor, which is what most of the ones people are on, is it increases serotonin levels, but it also causes a drop in dopamine. And dopamine is also the pleasure chemical. And so this is why a lot of men don't want to go on antidepressants as well is because it kind of flattens them out and it deadens things a little bit for them. And that may also be a contributing factor. The other thing is, is that if manner, using alcohol or cannabis, or cannabis or other other substances in order to self medicate, then that may also be affecting their sex drive. Right.

Tanya Gill: 00:13:25

And yeah, so there could be

Dr. Kellett: 00:13:28

a whole lot of different things that lead to a play.

Tanya Gill: 00:13:33

And this is good stuff. Like, I think that people need to recognize that this is like, this is real world. This is the experience of a man and you know, like, just being able to talk about it is so important. Okay, so we're talking about the archetypes.

Dr. Kellett: 00:13:49

Yeah. So the last one is the magician, which seems a bit more obscure, and Dungeons and Dragons but, but the magician really is the idea of being able to create, it's about the creation of things, the ability to influence things like that. And so someone who has mastery in their particular career, or somebody who's a really amazing woodworker to build a fence or fix a car or, or cook really well, it's there's a certain

Tanya Gill: 00:14:23

like drama case bonds. Yeah, like she's totally a magician, grommet case bonds.

Dr. Kellett: 00:14:28

So there's a certain magic to that, being able to sort of do that transformation to do that. Be that creative force. But, you know, sometimes people use that for for bad, they'll use it to control you know, and I've heard like in Harry Potter, yeah. And so if they're using using their skills or the knowledge to control or Putting down or less kind of things is an immature form

Tanya Gill: 00:15:03

of, of the magician. And, and so

Dr. Kellett: 00:15:10

across all these archetypes, if we approach it with the idea of

Tanya Gill: 00:15:17

being,

Dr. Kellett: 00:15:18

benevolence and loving, and with the idea of supporting all people and not just being selfish, then you're going to get into the mature space. And

Tanya Gill: 00:15:32

and sometimes that's hard for men to do because they need a space to do it.

Dr. Kellett: 00:15:37

They needed space to do it, but they also are really I don't think I'm actually overstating when I say men are actually terrified to open the cold room door was in our case,

Tanya Gill: 00:15:50

okay, so that's so funny, because you say terrified, and I was the word that was in my head was cautious. Men are cautious, but

Dr. Kellett: 00:15:58

they are terrified. Because if they open that door, and they start letting the emotion now, they are terrified that they can't control what and they're going to look really weak in the eyes of other people. And, and yet, and so they need people around them that tell it's okay, I'm here, I've got you, it's okay to do this. And this is where men's work actually can be really effective. There's a, there's a really great documentary called the work which is about a men's work group that works in Folsom Prison, in California, and in that there's a scene where this guy comes to the group, and he's a prisoner, and he's in there for murder and all kinds of things. But as his sister has died, and he hasn't been able to grieve for her, and he tells them, I need to be able to grieve for her, but I can't, I'm scared to let it come to the surface. I'm scared, I'm scared to do that. And these men basically in the group, surround him, they support him, one guy says that I've got you, I'm here. They literally they literally holds him and they work with him. somatically they work them somatically and they say, Listen, your jaw,

Tanya Gill: 00:17:19

let the emotion come. You know, three,

Dr. Kellett: 00:17:22

breathe, yeah, breathe. And let your let your, you know, don't just and they get into release. And they supportive this amazingly powerful. And and men don't really have that space very often. So that's why sometimes men's work, and some of these things can be so powerful. And the other part is the somatic element of that, where they're actually identifying emotions in their body. That's really important because men are very divorced from the body, they're taught to deny the emotion, they're taught to deny what's going on, they're told to stay in their head. Well, and so that that's what's happening. One

Tanya Gill: 00:18:07

thing, too, that I think is so cool is that you do Reiki you do energy energy work, so that sometimes men don't even have to talk about their emotion in order to start moving it, they can literally lay down on your table, and you don't even fucking touch them. And you start moving some of that emotion and help with some of that energy work. Like some people call it hokey, and well, like whatever. Because I know what a difference it makes like I'd love it when you do Reiki on my neck and back. And hearts.

Dr. Kellett: 00:18:40

Well, and I think if you'd asked me a few years ago, I would have told you it was it was hokey, too, but But what I learned and also sweet learning about trauma work is that trauma, energy gets trapped into by. And so energy work like Reiki or other forms of energy work or acupuncture or, or motion coding or whatever form it is, can help shift that energy. And when people do trauma therapies like EMDR and brainspotting, and things like that, that's also moving that, that trapped energy, somatic work, getting in touch with that is really important for men, but they need to have a safe environment in which to do it. Now in medicine, what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to articulate on what I would call an overarching archetype, which is called being a meta man or meta masculinity. And this is meta me TT A, which is a Pali word, which basically means the Netherlands and loving kindness as I did meditation and and learn about Buddhism and Some of these things I learned about metta practice and metta practice is basically where you first say, some love to yourself, right? You say, May I be healthy, may I be happy, may I be at peace, then you send love loving energy to people around you are close to like, may my family be happy man, it'd be healthy, may they be at peace. And then you would gradually extend that out even to your enemies or people that you don't get along with. And then eventually, so the whole world about love. And so, being a madman, in my mind is operating from a place of love and benevolence.

Tanya Gill: 00:20:42

Okay, let's talk about Netherlands. And so define the Netherlands,

Dr. Kellett: 00:20:45

the Netherlands is

Tanya Gill: 00:20:47

about doing things that

Dr. Kellett: 00:20:51

are suffering from places eventually helps helps other people and those around you. I mean, we hear people talk about benevolence when they're donating, donating things to charities, but

Tanya Gill: 00:21:04

they're considered very benevolent, often,

Dr. Kellett: 00:21:07

but benevolence is really just about.

Tanya Gill: 00:21:13

So supporting others,

Dr. Kellett: 00:21:15

but it's also about with metta practice, it's also about supporting yourself, because if you don't support yourself, you can't pour from an empty cup. And really, yeah, this is nothing like, Oh, I know.

Tanya Gill: 00:21:27

But it's so true, right? Like I am the women's version of self love, and that impact and legacy.

Dr. Kellett: 00:21:36

So yeah, so if they're operating from a place of metta, right, then they're operating from a place of non violence and loving kindness to themselves to others. And if they are operating as a meta, meta man or meta person, then they will inevitably lean towards the mature forms of all the other archetypes of ways of being in the world. And I think that what's beautiful about it is not that meta, or any of these archetypes is prescriptive. It's not saying these are the things you have to do to be masculine or to be a good man. But what it does is that establishes a lens, an ethical lens in which to, to exist, exist and look at your own intuition. Does this feel like I'm being enough? Am I being authentic? Am I am I? is the decision I'm making here about control? Or is it about what's best for everybody? Right? And, and, yes, it's gonna take reflection, and it's not going to change overnight. But it's a process. And it's about legacies of practice, right? And

Tanya Gill: 00:22:56

it's about legacy, because we have a mental health crisis. And if, if men because and I say this with women, too, if people don't step up and recognize and be able to give voice to their trauma, so that they can heal it, then we end up role modeling, being really tremendously unhealthy. And we don't want to own all of that to our kids. So we've got to deal with our shit.

Dr. Kellett: 00:23:26

Absolutely. And I think more than anything, there is a bit of a fact leadership vacuum amongst men in this form. Yeah. And this is part of the reason why men are struggling so much in mental health, and why there's a lot of issues related to all of this, and consequences of men's mental health and society.

Tanya Gill: 00:23:45

And a lot of people don't want to talk about men's mental health because they feel like there's this kickback to patriarchy. But that's not what this is.

Dr. Kellett: 00:23:52

Well, it isn't because it's patriarchy has created this problem, right. And so being a man is not inherently bad.

Tanya Gill: 00:24:01

There being a mature man

Dr. Kellett: 00:24:05

occupying that space, it's not bad. And really, the way I like to think about it is the policies that we've assigned to men and women are really the qualities that all people need both the male and the female in many ways, in order to be that loving, benevolent person, you have to embrace them both the full spectrum of of ways of being right, you need to embrace not only the strength, you also need to embrace the vulnerability, the softness, the creativity, the Add than the rigidity. I'm just

Tanya Gill: 00:24:39

kidding. Yeah,

Tanya Gill: 00:24:40

I mean, you have to, because

Tanya Gill: 00:24:43

what the problem has been

Dr. Kellett: 00:24:45

as the society is tried to force women into just one half of the qualities and men into what happened with qualities, but in reality, we may lean one side or the other, but we need all the qualities and so A being a meant to man or being a mature man also means being in touch, those qualities are assigned to the feminine as well. Because if you're mature men, then you should also be in touch with the whole in touch with the whole, you should be able to, to be a good father, you have to be caring, to be a good leader, you have to be empathetic, to to be somebody who planned something and lead something, you can't really plan or lead anything unless you've got creativity. And if you're not being emotionally intelligent in the process of that, so it's so when I'm talking about the masculine, it's, it's really recognizing this space in society that we've assigned to the man, but recognizing that man needs to be attached to the feminine, just like the women, the women also need to be in touch with the masculine. And I think what unfortunately has happened sometimes for women in society, is that because of patriarchy, and because of oppression, they've kind of internalized that oppression, and they tend to identify power and success with those toxic qualities of, of masculinity, like dominance, like control, you know, and demanding respect, things like that. Which, yeah, which you certainly understand why they do it, because they're trying to work in worlds that have been created by these patriarchal structures, but it's also perpetuating toxicity. So when I'm talking about the men or masculine, I'm also talking about women also need to attend to those masculine qualities from a point of view of men, and just like they need to attend to the feminine qualities from the point of view

Tanya Gill: 00:26:45

matter, right. It's, so it's so yeah, so this idea of SO and what's so interesting is we have to be able to identify the masculine, identify that the masculine and feminine, make a hole. It's the yin and yang, right. Like, that's how it works. But also that that the point is, is that men have traditionally been socialized and sometimes continue to be socialized differently. And so the effect on that is, ultimately becomes on their mental health and their well being.

Dr. Kellett: 00:27:22

And, and the spillover effects on the mental health and well being of those around them,

Tanya Gill: 00:27:26

right, including their spouses, their children, their families, their communities, their workplaces.

Dr. Kellett: 00:27:32

And I think that both men and women are experiencing trauma that's often not resolved. And that's why doing work on these things. And that's why communicating really well and working in partnerships, working through those processes. And growing together is necessary for a strong relationship. And that's where coaching can be really powerful. And yeah, and to be as strong parents as well. Because the legacy is really important because because if men can get in touch with these aspects, they will then role model that to other boys and other other men, and they will help shift the practice.

Tanya Gill: 00:28:14

Like I talked about spreading light.

Dr. Kellett: 00:28:16

Yeah. And so yeah, it's very much about legacy. It's about changing the future

Tanya Gill: 00:28:23

does not have to mean having your own biological or having your own children and family. Legacy is how you live your existence, and the way that we can impact others in the way that we show up and help them feel seen and feel seen ourselves. Like I love how Dr. Carrington talks about that. But it's like the legacy is how we we can affect change in a positive way. Well, I think even

Dr. Kellett: 00:28:56

even in a bigger area than that, I think, I think that men collectively are kind of lost in society today. And I think actually orienting ourselves around a particular goal. Giving purpose can actually help a lot of men shift out of a place of feeling lost and because their purpose in life can extend beyond just what they do for work

Tanya Gill: 00:29:25

Okay, so let's talk about purpose because I know you talked about this in the last podcast but the research Hey guys is a call Hey guys. No, no, it's what's up guys heads up, guys. So heads up guys did some rain did a pretty significant research.

Dr. Kellett: 00:29:47

Well, their website is focused on men who have depression and suicidal ideation and people lose supporting them. It stands for UBC, UBC is a group through UBC is a Canadian website. And they collected data from, I think leave over 70,000 people who had access to their website. And what they found was that 60% of the respond respondents said that, which was the biggest group said purpose was the biggest challenge they had in their life, lack of purpose,

Tanya Gill: 00:30:23

lack of purpose was number one. Okay. Well, it's number two, loneliness, loneliness. So there's another reason why men's groups really do need to exist because men are feeling lonely.

Dr. Kellett: 00:30:38

Yeah, and I think it's not just men's groups, although that's certainly one path, right? I think it's also about creating space where men can talk, and really connect on a deeper level,

Tanya Gill: 00:30:50

right? Because because a lot of those guys probably are on soccer teams, and, you know, maybe do the beer and wings and hockey together, or whatever that is. But that doesn't mean that loneliness doesn't still exist.

Dr. Kellett: 00:31:05

Well, and I think a lot of people like that talk, the idea of being lonely in the middle of the crowd. If you're not seeing, if you're not being authentic, you're actually lonely from yourself. And you also feel lonely, because people are not seeing who you are. And, and so loneliness is a significant issue for men, and it's definitely contribute to mental health issues. And certainly, I think also contributes to the fact that three out of four completed suicides in Canada are men. And then number three in the list was relationship challenges, which probably no surprise to you. And in terms of work, you do, and, and money was another factor. And I think what we have to also keep in mind is that money is a stressor for everybody. But for men, it's also very tied to the idea of the breadwinner, and masculine provider provider expectations, and that sometimes when then don't have enough money, they feel that

Tanya Gill: 00:32:15

they have failed as men. And so that's, that's another big player. So I think that men

Dr. Kellett: 00:32:26

are really kind of confused collectively, about what it means to be a good or an effective man, or, or anything in this day and age are unsure about it, there's not really the same conversation happening for men, there has been within the realm of women related to the multiple waves of feminism, in fact that women talk about these things a lot more. Right. And, and so I think that that's part of us contributing to purpose issues. I think the other issue, which I think I talked about in the last podcast, as well as the issue that men tie a lot of the purpose to their career, because that, again, is about the breadwinner idea. Employment is also very tied into men sense of, of what they're supposed to do in society. And so when they lose a job, or if they're not doing very well, in terms of earnings, or when they retire, these things all impact their sense of purpose. The other thing is, men social networks, often very tied to their place of employment. And so when it becomes a whole other when people retire when they retire, but also if they lose a job, or there's a layoff or anything else that they they don't always have deep, deep social networks. And so this is why we we see sort of men being hit in multiple ways after a job loss in terms of their emotional health. Because they're not only hit from the point of view that they don't feel they are doing their job has been providing or providing. They're sad about the loss of the job is affecting them maybe losing their emotional months or emotional spark, but their their wider social network. They're losing their sense of purpose, because maybe that was the only thing they focused on this new purpose. Increased loneliness, increased loneliness. Yeah, despair. Lots of different things come into play.

Tanya Gill: 00:34:37

And they're and they're socialized not to show those feelings. Yeah. So they bottle that shit up or they turned to the association Association. directions, strike them, right. And

Dr. Kellett: 00:34:54

because they don't let the emotionality builds up, and it spills over in, in anger, eligibility and other things as well.

Tanya Gill: 00:35:02

What do you say to women who recognize some of these traits in their partners? Because here's the thing like, Yes, I may have several clients who are different points in relationship dissolution. What do you say to those people who are listening or watching? Who are these women? Who are seeing what some of what you're describing, in their partners and their husbands in their, in their means? In the men in their lives that may or may not even be their partners, it may be their siblings, or it may be, you know, they're like, what, what do you say to those women?

Dr. Kellett: 00:35:50

It's challenging to give universal advice, because I think everybody knows, academic answer, but I'm gonna do is totally true. But I, but I think that I would start off by sort of reassuring that man that you love and care about them, and the reason you're talking to them about, it's because you do care about them, I would encourage people not to use any kind of shaming

Tanya Gill: 00:36:17

language. Like if you're, if you're saying

Dr. Kellett: 00:36:22

your crappy emotions, sharing your emotions, or your your name calling is not going, it's not gonna really help at work. But I think like, saying, I'm concerned about you like to see you're having a hard time. And I think encouraging them to, to consider things like therapy, joining amends for talking to their friends as well, if they do have close friends that they can talk to. And I think that one of the things which a lot of men don't realize, because they've haven't had that with friends is that, that having that space to talk about things are going on and process outside of your immediate relationship is good, because

Tanya Gill: 00:37:11

it means that

Dr. Kellett: 00:37:14

you can think through things before you say something stupid,

Tanya Gill: 00:37:17

right, which is why like, for example, if a man is on your table, and they're receiving Reiki, they may also want to process some of that those things that are going on for them. And it's a safe place for them to talk to if they

Dr. Kellett: 00:37:31

choose absolutely or, or in a men's group or in men's coaching or any of those kind of contexts. And I think, I think the key thing is for men to reach out to an area that they they feel safe and supported. And if they don't have that area, to look for

Tanya Gill: 00:37:50

groups like this,

Dr. Kellett: 00:37:54

or people like me, or in my area, you can certainly reach out to me as well. But but look for people who are going to be a safe place who are going to listen who are not going to shame who that there is help out there that you're not alone. And one thing that doesn't make you a pussy, no, in fact, or

Tanya Gill: 00:38:19

a baby, and for

Dr. Kellett: 00:38:20

a week. In fact, I would say that being willing to be vulnerable and address your shit is far more strong than not. It takes courage.

Tanya Gill: 00:38:33

And it's so true. And so that takes incredible courage to face your shift

Dr. Kellett: 00:38:39

it does. And what I can say is that by doing it, even if you can't save the existing relationship that you're in, you will change for the better yourself. And if you go into future relationships, you'll be in a better place. Yes. And you definitely will do okay, you'll do better than if you hadn't done it. And so I think that finding that kind of brotherhood and support, finding those supports in any shape or form is good. And what I would say is, is like someone who say, well, I'll just go fishing, or I'll do something else, you know, I'm striking myself and feel better when I do that when I'm off by myself. And yeah, it might feel good and do things for yourself, but it ultimately isn't going to move that emotion and it's not going to mean those things until you address it and actually engage in it. I think the tough part is once you get to a point where a marriage or a relationship is getting to the point of dissolution, it's there's already a lot of water under the bridge and a lot of hurt. And people are probably already feeling a lot of judgment and so there could be other other things coming Let's play with each of those gestures. But I think even better thing is to do the kind of the upstream work, where you actually do some preventative work and you engage in this long before there are problems totally. So even if somebody is not having a lot of problems right now, I think engaging in this work, you'll probably find some things that you didn't realize. And I would also say that we can also do a lot of upfront upstream work with the boys in our lives and trying to create the space for that and encouraging them to do it. Allow them to have their feelings allow them to have a safe space to have those feelings. And

Tanya Gill: 00:40:46

let them cry. I did a podcast on the importance and value of crying. Yes, like, I mean, even a good sob is a release of energy.

Dr. Kellett: 00:40:56

Absolutely. And, and sometimes exercise is another way to move energy,

Tanya Gill: 00:41:05

although, which is why sometimes some of the people that are like, and this is just something that I've seen, is that some of the people that are really intense, like really intense gym rats, sometimes are that not all of them, but sometimes some of them are really intense, because that's their way of association.

Dr. Kellett: 00:41:31

Well, and there's a, there's a process Association piece there. And so some people do dissociate, and they get really intense. And I would say, actually, one of the associations with men sometimes can be obsessive hobbies, right? Anything that is distracting them. And so if their work, all they do is work out that can be dissociation. But I do think that there is if you're going to dissociate, probably working out is probably a better one than some of the others as a wellness manager. And I think that people who are runners, people who do go for a bike ride or go for a hike, or those good things often find that helps their mental health because they are moving some of that energy. Oh, totally.

Tanya Gill: 00:42:15

So I'm not saying that when you work out, you're dissociating all the time, I'm just saying that there's a line that gets that creates that. But that there is an you and I we go for a walk every morning. We walk for approximately 26 minutes, says my Apple watch. And it's 1.72 kilometers. So maybe we walk slow, maybe we walk fast, but it's in the coolies. And there's help the hills from help. And 138 stairs, but it's moving energy. And that's really healthy. Yeah. So going for a walk with your partner can also be

Dr. Kellett: 00:42:54

a good thing. Yeah, and I do know that some men also are find having an animal like a dog or something like that, that gets them out. But the dog also provides. They don't give you any feedback, per se, but they're providing support, and they are somebody you can talk to you none of them are going to talk about anything else. And so there are men who I think also benefit a lot from, from animals in their life. Yeah, there there are men who definitely talked about the benefit of, of walking the dog, and for your mental health, or getting together with groups of other men are walking their dogs. And that this opportunity to see to make connections as well, people.

Tanya Gill: 00:43:40

But sometimes we like I mean, when we go to the dog park, we see a lot of similar faces. Sometimes we socialize with them more. And sometimes we don't have time, but they're big. There's kind of a sense of community around some of that. It's a superficial community right at this point. But there's, there's that's being seen. There's that connection that happens in that,

Dr. Kellett: 00:44:00

yeah, but there's lots of different opportunities that could could happen. And groups could be formed, particularly around certain activities. We know that, for example, the Men's Sheds model which has been the started in Australia and he's others men get together over different kinds of activities. Traditionally, it was around woodworking and, and things like that. But some of the modern benches, they get together over all kinds of activities. And sometimes it's not just older men, it's men of different generations and older men can serve as mentors for younger than some of those things as well. So the Men's Shed name is another example of people creating real connections.

Tanya Gill: 00:44:42

But then how can you say that the men shed creates real connections, but the soccer team hasn't?

Dr. Kellett: 00:44:49

Well, I think that the differences is there. A soccer team could if the soccer team chose to put some purposeful,

Tanya Gill: 00:44:58

which really is where it comes onto the leadership piece.

Dr. Kellett: 00:45:00

And so with men sheds, yeah, the men, when they first go there, they're often just doing woodwork next to one another and getting to know each other's name. But then they will also have different activities where they engagement in deeper conversation. And the men who've done a little more work, and they're more open role model that people out and it's it. And so there is a there's a purposefulness in the way in which they, they engage their program.

Tanya Gill: 00:45:35

So okay, so then that's private Parker, because private Parker and the art of gathering is all about, when you gather it, like there needs, there should be a purpose to it. And there should, there should be an intention to it, I hate using should. But ideally, and for there to be optimal function, I guess, there should be purpose. And so the mansion has purpose. And the purpose is to gather and connect on a deeper level,

Dr. Kellett: 00:46:08

I think the soccer team would say they have a purpose, and they're getting kids to play soccer. But I think that the purpose is in the context of something like Men's Sheds.

Tanya Gill: 00:46:19

That that's the point and more

Dr. Kellett: 00:46:20

men spoke or whatever, but there's a emphasis on going a little bit beyond the surface. And I think that there could be, I mean, ideally, it'd be wonderful. In the long run sports organizations started working some of this stuff in their absolute programming, you know, and then we're men and women, for men and women. And then we might actually see not be seeing some of the scandals we're seeing, and some of the sports spheres around Men Behaving Badly and bullying and, and engaging in sexual violence and things like that. But I think it's about as a society, we need to have the conversations, we need to start making shifts in lots of different spheres, right, from socializing our kids, to encouraging men to be more vulnerable and normalizing that, and normalizing men's emotion, and just having some really good honest conversations, it's not going to change overnight. But, but it but if you don't try, nothing will change. Right.

Tanya Gill: 00:47:31

And it's like planting the tree, it really is, you don't plant the tree for this generation, you plant it for the future generations. But you know what, along the way, that tree fucking grows. Right. And in our own time, we bloom, right, like, I'm always talking about that, right, the peony, and in our own time, we bloom, but it's still like, there is legacy.

Dr. Kellett: 00:47:53

Well, and I think, you know, perhaps the thing on which to leave this on is, it's never too late. Never. So even if, even if you've been very dissociated as a father or as a man, you can change how you act tomorrow. And it could change how things are gonna go from that point forward, you can heal a relationship with your, your kids with your family, there's always value and exploring yourself and working on yourself. And I think that's the other thing is that ultimately, we're each responsible for ourselves. And, and so, ultimately, it's about encouraging that man to be able to take responsibility for himself in a way that's supportive, not shaming or blaming, but also owning our own stuff, whatever it is, because I think when there's a couple, you each have to do your own work, but then you also have to work together. Because you have to have those conversations, and you have to be honest, and you have to work through those, those things. Because we're ultimately, a lot of times reacting off the programming that we have absolutely our own traumas, and

Tanya Gill: 00:49:16

that in our relationship and our own reactions off of our own.

Dr. Kellett: 00:49:20

And so, so if we never address it, then we will change it. But we also have to be willing to forgive when sometimes some of those things do happen, because it's not necessarily stuck in perfect spot, necessarily easy to shift your way to being

Tanya Gill: 00:49:40

right away. But the more awareness you bring to it, the more you're able to be friend or inner critic, and the more you are focused on raising your vibration. Really, the more joyful your life once. Absolutely. That's called the trifecta of joy, by the way Really? Never heard of it. Never, never, never read it. Never heard of it, or that.

Dr. Kellett: 00:50:09

I've read it. Yeah, sounds good conversation.

Tanya Gill: 00:50:15

It's a good conversation. Okay. So, at the end of my podcasts, I always ask my guests, if people want to get in touch with you, how do they do that?

Dr. Kellett: 00:50:27

Well, if they want to get in touch with me, probably the best way would be to reach out to my website at metta men.com, that's ma TT a man.com. I am

Tanya Gill: 00:50:40

not meant M E T, T, A, M, a n dot c o m dot c

Dr. Kellett: 00:50:45

lm. And you'll be able to find a little bit more about some of the things that I talk about in my work. I am also on Facebook and Twitter and, and

Tanya Gill: 00:51:03

starting a YouTube channel, which is I think, gonna just explode because people need to hear this stuff.

Dr. Kellett: 00:51:09

So most things, but