The Mask of Masculinity with Dr. Peter Kellett

Tanya Gill: 00:00:00

Today, my friends, I am going to invite you to hear some wisdom from a very wise man, the trifecta of joy and our self love summer is also about our relationships with our partners. And today I want to introduce you to a conversation that I had with my husband, Dr. Peter Kellett, about men and their experience of life. So, my lovely listeners, I would like to share with you, Dr. Peter Kellett, my beloved husband, and I'm, and we want to have a conversation with you. And we were talking about how, with self love summer, we are really exploring the idea of relationships as well. And relationships come in so many different ways and shapes and sizes. But when we have primary relationships with partners, and it's a male female relationship, there are elements that are overlooked when it comes to the support that men need and want. And so we started talking about that. And I said, Can we please record this? So, Peter? Yes, he's just want me to go. I kind of do because I'm like, please, Like, seriously, we were talking about friendships and and in reality, it is easier for women to create friendships where we have space to be emotional with one another. Yes.

Dr. Kellett: 00:01:57

I think that a lot of people don't realize this, how strongly men are socialized to not talk about emotion. And, you know, the risk of sounding academic, I mean, there's certainly research out there that shows that when they're born, male babies are actually more emotional than female babies. But by the time they're 18 months of age, they're already starting to control their emotions. And by the time they get to school age, they are already in a place where it's sometimes hard to tell what emotion they're experiencing. This is sometimes called by a lot of people the mask of masculinity,

Tanya Gill: 00:02:50

the mask of masculinity, and then you taught me the word alexithymia.

Dr. Kellett: 00:02:57

Yeah, and we talked about this a little bit, I think in the last podcast I did with you better. alexithymia is a clinical term. A in the lexicon is no Lexie words, for feeling SpiderMan. And alexithymia was something that tends to show up and people who have undergone a great deal of trauma. And in other words, people have gone through the fight or flight process to the point freeze, where they almost have to shut down their emotions to cope with the traumatic experiences they're going through.

Tanya Gill: 00:03:38

So some of us might think of that, for example, as us having like, literally a glass wall around us like that the feelings just are emptiness.

Dr. Kellett: 00:03:46

Yeah. And I think everybody can identify with the fact that sometimes when they're really upset, they just kind of feel flat, they feel kind of numb, and they have a hard time expressing what they're feeling.

Tanya Gill: 00:03:57

Yeah, we never have those kinds of things happen in our relationship doing

Dr. Kellett: 00:04:00

well, never ever. But I think that there was an American psychologist Ron Levant, who's first talked about this in the context of a of men that he was seeing in counseling. And these men, when he asked them questions, like, how does that make you feel? They actually had a really hard time answering those questions. And and so it really what we have to think about is really what will lead to this and these men. And when we think about how many young boys and I'm not saying all young boys, but many boys have been socialized that. As soon as he starts to cry, the parents say something like Don't cry. Be a big boy.

Tanya Gill: 00:04:52

Right? Okay, so or suc. Exactly, and in the trifecta of joy, that is the befriend your inner critic, part of what's added cheer, cultural stew, right from birth on. And it's those things like, you know, suck it up, get up and dust yourself off, you're a big boy.

Dr. Kellett: 00:05:10

Yeah, um, so basically, they have developed the democratic the shadow that basically is tearing them down if they show any emotion. And this gets reinforced in so many different ways throughout their life, to the point where a lot of lot of young young boys and men are very reluctant to express emotion because it puts them at risk for oh, so bullying and social exclusion, and it puts them masculinity in question, right?

Tanya Gill: 00:05:46

They're not the tough guy that they're, they get, then they get bullied for being a baby or a crybaby, or not being tough enough to take it or whatever.

Dr. Kellett: 00:05:58

Yeah, and we see a lot of fathers who are already struggling with their own emotional challenges and difficulty expressing emotion, who, whose fathers never expressed emotion to them, or provided a space for them to be emotional. So here's the

Tanya Gill: 00:06:21

thing, though, like, I have clients who are in spaces of separation, divorce, and, and those kinds of things. And, and one of the biggest things that they've said is that these men couldn't get real with them, and couldn't be emotional, and talk about the real things and talk about feelings. And so, you know, I'm supporting these women in their journeys. And yet, there's a part of me that says, Oh, my God, what has he missed? That has led to this?

Dr. Kellett: 00:07:04

Well, you know, while I certainly don't want to take away an individual person's responsibility in a relationship, I think, though, that a lot of men really struggle because they've had no opportunity to practice these skills in their life at all.

Tanya Gill: 00:07:20

Or if they have, it's been very little, maybe with like, a couple of safe people like their mother,

Dr. Kellett: 00:07:28

mother, maybe their sister. And the research is very clear. Actually, the men depend on the women in their lives for their emotional support. Because the relationships with other men tend to be more superficial and around activity.

Tanya Gill: 00:07:44

Oh, yeah. Like this. Like the guys who had the football nights or are part of the I don't know bowling league. Do people still bowl? Yes, people still will. Or the car guys. Right? Or the, I don't know. woodworkers, wood crafter. Woodcrafters. Yeah.

Dr. Kellett: 00:08:03

And, and certainly, there's a lot of emphasis on externalizing behaviors in men and doing things rather than necessarily talking about things or, or exploring that. And this is one of the things that drives women crazy, because as soon as they tell men, something that's going on for them, they want to fix it, they will try to externalize it try and and find a solution to it. And I think that's for two reasons, partly because they've been socialized that way, but also partly because they're also many of them uncomfortable being in that space of motion. And I think what, what I would like a lot of women to know, is that these men's, are depending on these important women in their life for that emotional support. And they're actually also terrified of not appearing masculine to their wives or to their partners. Totally. And so and so. There, they really don't want to. They don't want to put that relationship at risk from that point of view as well.

Tanya Gill: 00:09:15

Well, and the thing is, is that I know men who have have been called horrific names, as well. And in this case of being a pussy, because of expressing emotion, you know, talking about feeling hurt, talking about feeling disappointed, talking about the feelings that they were having. And, and it was it was he was I know, somebody was called, he was called a pussy. And it was like, that was the end of that relationship.

Dr. Kellett: 00:09:56

Well, I think that this also speaks to One of the challenges that men also have in trying to develop these skills and to be vulnerable is that sometimes when they are expressing emotion, they often it's often not received very well, even by the people who have actually encouraged them to be emotional. And, and when, in saying this, I don't want to imply that women in their lives trying to make it bad for them, I think that they are often reacting off their own programming and socialization in relation to gender. And so I think,

Tanya Gill: 00:10:36

My God, how many people our generation saw our fathers cry, Like, legitimately, and like maybe with death, but like, How many times did we see our fathers cry?

Dr. Kellett: 00:10:51

Well, and I think this is the issue. And even when people are very progressive, feminist oriented, you know, pro men being emotional. I think that when, when we talk about attraction profiles and things like that, people will often be attracted to what's familiar. And so

Tanya Gill: 00:11:14

that's why people say that people are often attracted to people like their fathers, not me, just so we're clear.

Dr. Kellett: 00:11:21

No, that's fine. I'm not necessarily saying that it's about being attract to your father. But I think that the male role models that you've had in your life, are going to influence maybe what you're attracted to, and, and so many ways, a lot of women they think we're exposed to fathers who were distant who were emotionally restricted, who may have been absent in some degree, either physically or emotionally. And I think sometimes they unwittingly, and subconsciously, are attracted to that, that kind of men, but at the same time, the men who are willing to be emotional, sometimes it's not receivable.

Tanya Gill: 00:12:10

And, I mean, we have a very, I think we have a very strong, open, connected relationship. But there are times when you're emotional, it's very hard for me, because I feel a sense of like, stepping into almost a parenting role. It's not like that all of the time. But sometimes it is, and I don't know why that is. But the truth is, it is hard for women to write and so and I think maybe that's because of the context of family maybe. But also absolutely like,

Dr. Kellett: 00:12:54

Well, I think, first of all, I think if a woman says that to a man, they feel like they don't have time to step in the parent role, I think that's going to immediately shut that men down. Because I think that it's implying that he's, he's childish for being that way. I think it's very understandable. Why women, especially women, who are also mothers, and you're balancing multiple, multiple demands on their time, especially in the context of relationships, where maybe the father or husband is not taking part in the emotional labor of caring children. They think that when that mother is having to now look after the emotions of the husband, when they're already struggling to balance all the other pieces, I think that that then becomes, becomes too much. And I don't think it's necessarily that they can't have the capacity to be there for them. But I think this is where men also have to take responsibility for recognizing that strong relationship means that you also have to

Tanya Gill: 00:14:11

play in partnership partnership

Dr. Kellett: 00:14:12

n and be fully involved and all the thing and all of the things

Tanya Gill: 00:14:17

like it's not just her job to sweep the floor. Yes, for example.

Dr. Kellett: 00:14:22

Yes, exactly. And so if, and this is where I think these you know, these patriarchal practices that happen for a long time and still are very, very prevalent because we still know that women take too much of the load of the care of children and house, cleaning house housework as they call it. Still, a lot of men are not participating in that. And so we'd like

Tanya Gill: 00:14:54

to say that you are a very active participant in most things and I'm grateful

Dr. Kellett: 00:15:00

And I wouldn't have it any other way. But I think again, like what we have to recognize to some of these men is they also it's also about their precarious state of masculinity that they also don't engage in some of those things sometimes, because depending on who's around them, they may also tear them down if they're engaged in some of those, those behaviors, or the internalized messages that they got from their fathers or the other men in their life. Maybe

Tanya Gill: 00:15:33

the diaper Yes, or, or my favorite. Oh, Dad's babysitting today. Yeah. Oh, my God, that one is just too much.

Dr. Kellett: 00:15:44

Yeah, and I'm not again, I'm not saying this as an excuse. But what we have is we have internalized socialization and stories that people are telling cultural stew. And it's the same stories that, that some men don't want to wear a shirt and time because it's not manly enough, or that they don't want to wear certain colors, because it's not manly enough. Or those, you know,

Tanya Gill: 00:16:09

with long hair, or, you know, there are all kinds of yeah, there's all kinds

Dr. Kellett: 00:16:13

of different things we could talk about. I mean, and even this kind of idea that somehow a man is whipped, if he does what his wife asks. Right? Oh, right. And, and again, that comes from misogyny and, and oppressive stuff. And that's not a mature a masculine way of dealing with things. And so, one of the things that, just like to contextualize this in is that patriarchal behaviors and oppressive behaviors and controlling behaviors, those are not mature masculine behaviors, those are immature, masculine behaviors. And so in many ways, patriot, you know, the structures that have influenced the socialization society, are about an immature masculinity. And that's not necessarily the case. For all men, obviously.

Tanya Gill: 00:17:08

And this is, this is not a blame game. Like though, if there's a woman listening, it's really important that that we clarify that this is not about calling your partner immature, or, you know, pointing out the flaws in your partner. This is about understanding, the socialization that men have had to bring them to the place that they are in, and the reality that getting in touch with their emotional side. And being that authentic, for them, maybe really challenging.

Dr. Kellett: 00:17:45

Yeah, and certainly, by talking about those things, as they interact endemic me trying to explain some of these things. I'm the person who's done men's work and men's coaching. Yeah, blaming is not the way to move forward with anything, I think. I think that hopefully, by listening to this, women may understand a little bit more why men have trouble talking about some of these things. And why it seems kind of bizarre for them, that they actually have trouble putting into words, what's going on for them, or what's bothering them. Um, because literally, they have very little opportunity to practice it.

Tanya Gill: 00:18:27

And this is where I think there is kind of a significant gender difference again, and you know, like, we talked about friendships, and I mean, no secret in the trifecta of joy, I talk about my High Council. And I have very intimate emotional conversations with each of those people. I also have very intimate emotional conversations with you. I have several people that I can have those kinds of conversations with.

Dr. Kellett: 00:18:53

And I think that for most men, that pool is much smaller. Yeah. And part of what initiated this, this conversation tonight was just talking about the fact that just running into someone in an activity as a man doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be able to get to a place where that person is going to be there for you and a way beyond the activity. In many cases, that's not to say that might not happen. But I think it's much harder for men to find those, those friends where they can be vulnerable, and maybe process things that they're going through than it is for women to find people who are willing to do that. Because of this enormous of alexithymia and because of also this fear of not being masculine enough in the eyes of these other men.

Tanya Gill: 00:19:51

So this is interesting, because in a previous episode, when, in a previous episode, I had the privilege of interviewing Dr. Jody Carrington. And in her book, she talks about an experience of her son. And it was a hockey locker room situation. And it was a situation around bullying type stuff, right? And so then I'm thinking to myself, you know, God talks about, like, seriously gets Mamabear read the book, it's really good. But interestingly enough, the book is called feeling seen, right? And feeling seen as about creating relationship, whether it be a surface relationship, where you're just having a great conversation with someone with someone in a thrift store, who recognizes you and says, Are you the trifecta of joy? That happens to me today? Right? Or if it's a deep relationship, that becomes a very close friendship? I think that we have the ability as women more to connect on a deeper level, because that locker, I don't know, maybe not that locker room stuff?

Dr. Kellett: 00:21:10

Well, I think I think what it is comes back to kind of that terminal, a mask of masculinity. And so because men, I think, are socialized from an early age, that they're, that to be truly authentic in that moment, especially if they're in an emotional place, or they're, they're not feeling particularly strong or tough in that moment, that if, if they can't be authentically who they are, in some cases, it might also be that maybe they like things and aren't being as typically masculine, right, like a man who makes man nets or a man who likes dance or or is artistic, or, you know, whatever it is, right? He loves, you know, does things which are not viewed as typically masculine. And, and so by not being authentic to who you are, is is inherently traumatic. Gabor Ma Tei. Dr. bomonti talks about this all the time, but if you're unable to be authentic, the you it traumatizes you. And so I think inherently, this is where the trauma comes in the socialization of young boys as they're being told to, to put this mask on to not be authentic to play act, this unrealistic idea of what man is supposed to be put on the mask of masculinity. And if they don't do that, then they're not men enough, right. There are some emotions that are acceptable. Yes. And this is one of the things that actually is very key to understand that men and and mental health is that emotions that are vulnerable or not okay? But motions that are more accepted to men are things like anger, aggression, even lust is viewed as more acceptable than being vulnerable. And so what happens is, is when they feel inadequate, or they feel shamed, they will often engage in a kind of reactive protest performance that to sort of say I am masculine, is that when the affairs come from, that is one of the areas where affairs come from addiction, porn, addiction, irritability, substance abuse, or substance abuse, I think I think there's, there's different different paths, if you've got the shame, you can gain go into compulsive behaviors to dissociate, right? And that's where the addictions come from. That's where the porn use sometimes comes into play. That's where I Fair's fair sometimes are coming into play. I think that the the other thing that the shame can generate, though, is an emotional response. But the only acceptable emotions might be something like, like aggression or anger. And so we actually see in manual arrest showing a little more aggression or

Tanya Gill: 00:24:11

what I felt like that passive aggressive humor thing that men do, like that sarcastic humor thing like

Dr. Kellett: 00:24:19

Well, I think I think, yes, I know exactly what you mean. But I think that comes from like, almost mockery. Well, and that comes from socialization as men where it's almost I call it sparring, like constantly testing each other's masculinity. And you see this with some men, where they are, are undermining each other questioning each other's masculinity. And you particularly see it in like young men. They're very overt with it. But even with older men, sometimes you see that happening or, or even get father's doing that to their sons or their kids. And and humor is also a dissociation method, if they're uncomfortable about something, they may engage in humor around it. Or they may, that's another acceptable emotion is to laugh and to do those things. So sometimes they will put on the mask of laughter, or humor, but it's coming from a place of pain, a lot of times or a place of, of not really knowing how to process that. And they will sometimes be sarcastic and be unpleasant. And it also comes from that kind of regression piece. The other thing I would say that feeds the affairs issue is that men are also socialized that they're not supposed to ask for affection. They're not supposed to be hugged. They're not supposed to be held. And, and because a lot of men are also in need of affection, they're also in need of support. One of the few areas in their life where they're able to ask for that is sex. Right? And so when a sexual relationships not going well, or if they're not engaging in sex, then they may crave that kind of emotional support somewhere.

Tanya Gill: 00:26:19

I think.

Dr. Kellett: 00:26:21

The other thing is, is if we think about the dissociation, compulsive stuff, the affair is also is a compulsive desire for that common kind of soothing, that's support and engage in affairs. And that's also where porn addiction is fed to.

Tanya Gill: 00:26:39

Do you think so? too, that possibly, and I'm just gonna throw this out there that affairs also happened? Because I'm in one environment and relationship, there's responsibility? And then the other one, there is none, or significantly, significantly less?

Dr. Kellett: 00:26:57

Oh, absolutely. I think that there's, there's always a little bit. So easier, I think when they go to a relationship where there isn't any accountability or responsibility. I don't think that justifies the choice that they're making. But I think that might fuel it as well. And I think there's always this kind of idea that the grass is going to be greener on the other side. And I think that plays up for women as well, sometimes when they think, oh, you know, someone else is going to be better? Are they gonna give me what I need, because I'm not getting what they need.

Tanya Gill: 00:27:31

And I think what scares me about that is that, you know, we have, together we have three sons and one daughter, and all of them are to some degree or another seeking connection with a partner. And they've commented on how, you know, it's like, people don't want to connect, people just want to talk back and forth for a gajillion years, and they never want to meet, and they don't want to engage. And they, you know, it's easier to hook up than it is to have a relationship. And these are words not spoken by our daughter. These are words spoken by one of our sons. And so that's really interesting. Because I think that, uh, you know, I talk about this as to me, it's about the legacy of self love. It's about recognizing that we have the opportunity and legacy to teach and to role model, and to show the future generations what self love looks like, so that they don't live by their inner critic so that they can step authentically into their truth. So they can live their lightest and happiest lives. Mind, body and spirit.

Dr. Kellett: 00:28:55

Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I think, I think the the issue of trying to find deep relationships, yeah, in this day and age, I think is multifactorial. I think that for young people, I think it's also been highly impacted by technology. And the fact that a lot of people are much more comfortable talking in the chat online, or via text and they are face to face with people. I think for pandemic didn't make it any better. It kind of made it worse. I think one thing we have to recognize too, amongst boys who are gamers, is that and not just boys, girls, two kids that are gamers are gamers that these these online games, they're talking to one another and a lot of times this is their source of socialization,

Tanya Gill: 00:29:56

and community and community and for one of our kids that community is so tight, that they are fine to meet somewhere together. Yeah. And

Dr. Kellett: 00:30:07

but the reality is, is they've been socialized into communication in that way. It's. And so a lot of young people, I think today when they're face to face with people, it's tough. And they think it's scary for them. Because there's a, there's a social anxiety associated with it, because they don't have a lot of experience.

Tanya Gill: 00:30:28

And what Fox that up is that, what happens is that, I think that men feel safer being emotional via text, which is attractive to women, in a way via text. And then what happens is that, for some people, when they get face to face with that person, it's like, oh, hang on a second. Because there's obviously different energy. And, you know, vulnerability in words is completely different from vulnerability, face to face, nose to nose, toes

Dr. Kellett: 00:31:02

to toes, absolutely anything to that when you're face to face, if you say something, you have a personal approval, you're gonna see it on their face. And, and, again, there's that shame can come up. And so I think, so I think that that is, that is kind of a result of multiple things, but from boys, and men, I think it you can kind of turn it up a couple of notches, because even when they are face to face, they're often been socialized to keep it very superficial, very focused on the task at hand. Don't make it about emotions. And, and so they've had even less practice. And so I think what we're seeing is that a lot of young men going into the dating world, are probably going into it with even more challenges than even previous generations of men. And, and I think, you know, in relationships, too, I mean, as they develop, I think both men and women are gonna have to grow in their relationship together. And if the men are not willing to engage in any self reflection, or, or in any conversation, and it's gonna be really hard to grow together,

Tanya Gill: 00:32:31

okay, so we are committed to growing together, right, unquestionably. And you said, you know, when you see something on someone's face, so when I made a reference to sometimes with emotion that can feel like, like, all of a sudden, it's like, I'm a parent. You had a reaction to that?

Dr. Kellett: 00:32:51

I did. But I, I recognize where it came from. Okay, so, so, but I had a reaction. And I commented on it, because I think that when you're talking to men about some of these issues, and the thing that sort of makes them more vulnerable, or more childlike, tends to make them feel greater shame.

Tanya Gill: 00:33:20

So then let's get real about this. Did you feel shame in, in my sharing that in receiving that in my sharing that because here's the thing, this is something that I have heard from many women, there are many women who refer to their spouse as their third child and fourth child, fifth child. second child, you I do not think of as my child, however, you had a reaction. And it was a personal reaction.

Dr. Kellett: 00:33:57

Well, it was a personal reaction, there was an element of shame to it. But it was hot to me like, it was blunted by the fact that I understood where it came came from. Right. And so I could, in that, in that moment, when you said it, I knew where you're coming from, and that and so I reminded myself almost instantaneously not to take that personally. But I think that some men, some men are not going to recognize where that came from, and saw a reference to them being a child or just someone that has to be taken care of, when they may feel that they are doing what they can to try and take care of their family and whatever form could be viewed as very offensive to them in that moment.

Tanya Gill: 00:34:53

Absolutely.

Dr. Kellett: 00:34:54

Right. And so, but I we've kind of talked about some issues related to this before so, so yeah, it it, I had a different, different take on it. But I'll be honest, there was a moment when you said that, and we're on camera where I thought, why is she saying that to me on camera? Because it kind of felt as if you were undermining me a little bit. That's so interesting, you know, right. And so we're undermining me in the eyes of other people, not necessarily that you are undermining me, but you could be positioning in a place of

Tanya Gill: 00:35:41

vulnerability. Isn't that interesting? Right? So here's the thing, right? Like, we're talking about male vulnerability, you had a reaction, and it was so real. And that reaction was to being vulnerable. In a public forum, right. And yet, it's just you and me, we could cut that shit out. It doesn't matter. But I like, Okay, I'm gonna call you emotionally evolved, don't let your heart head get too big. But you're a pretty emotionally evolved guy. And you are someone who is passionate about metta man, and is passionate, which is loving kindness. And you can talk about that in a second. But you're passionate about men being able to have a safe space. And to be able to talk about this stuff, and maybe even learn how to connect with their feelings. Because, you know, I use the analogy of the cold room, right, and everything goes into a jar and goes into the cold room. And so if men have these cold rooms, like they may not even know how to open the door. And so you help with that. And yet, and it's proof that, you know, the best teacher is someone who's doing the growing themselves. And you have a reaction, and I love you for it. And I love you for for being so willing to just say this like to say, Yeah,

Dr. Kellett: 00:37:19

I reacted well, and they think that as I've done this work, and I would have, it's really interesting, actually, as I did my men's coach training as well, we had an exercise once where there was a man in the group where the other men sort of called them not not being open, not really sharing their emotions. And that man reacted by saying, well, that's not what people in my life told me. And it was suddenly like this huge realization for me. Because I think those of us who are have expressed emotion are often told we're too emotional. And yet, even when we are emotional people, because we've been shamed for that, we're often still working to put up that mask. And

Tanya Gill: 00:38:16

especially as a professional, Dr. Peter Kellett.

Dr. Kellett: 00:38:18

Well, and all I know. And so in that moment, I saw that he wasn't being authentic. And I always one of the people, you also talked about that. But then I realized I was basically projecting my own stuff on that man at that moment, because I was also more have more of a mask than I realize. And, and so I think that I think that it takes time, like it took, it took a lot of years, I'm 53, almost. And took a lot of years to build the mask, it took a lot of years to build that shell. And it's a process a process to practice. And I think that I've been studying masculinities and men's well being for 20 years. And, and I acknowledge when I teach about it, that I know that the norms around masculinity are mythical. They're not achievable, and then that really desirable. Yet I still catch myself measuring myself against them at times, even though I know they're bullshit.