Loving With Boundaries – Are You Living With An Addict? With Candace Plattor

Tanya Gill: 00:00:08

Hi friend, I'm Tanya Gill Welcome to lighten up and unstuck your What the fuck. Together we explore the ways through life's stickiness moments, and how to live with more peace, joy, love and gratitude. We're going to talk honestly about what isn't easy so you can discover the light within you that will carry you forward. My friend, this podcast is about you in real life, your body, mind and soul, and the opportunity to not only live your best, but shine and doing it

Tanya Gill: 00:00:50

Hello, my friends and welcome to lighten up and unstuck your What the fuck? I am excited to share my friend Candice with you. Candice platter is the founder of love with boundaries. And she works in the area of family Addictions Counseling and Therapy. What is incredible about Candace is the what the fuck that brought her to this place. Candace, I'm so glad you're here. Thank you.

Candace Plattor: 00:01:18

Thanks, Diana. Yeah, I'm doing I'm happy to be here. Hi, everyone.

Tanya Gill: 00:01:23

It is so wonderful to be able to share space with you, Candace. Because when we connected last time, it's almost as if it was meant not to have recorded properly because we were really racing a clock. And this time, I feel like we can have a really great conversation about what it means to love with boundaries. But before we go there, how did you come to this place of love with boundaries? And what was your own personal experience?

Candace Plattor: 00:01:52

Oh, my gosh, well, so long story. So I'll I'll nutshell it for you. It started in the early 70s When I was diagnosed with Crohn's disease, which is a really painful, debilitating, unpredictable, embarrassing, horrible disease to have. And when I was a lot better now I just want to say that because I've learned how to take care of myself. But it's one of those incurable conditions. I can't get rid of it. At least, I haven't found a way to do that. But at the time, when I was diagnosed, the doctors didn't know what to do for me because it was a pretty new disease. There weren't medications for it, you know. So when I saw when I first presented to the doctors, what they decided to do was throw a lot of addictive medication at me like, like Valium, like benzodiazepines and opioids, like codeine and Demerol and, and Oxycontin, morphine, and you name it, I had it, I could get more of it over and over and over again. And that's what I did, because it made me feel better. And I smoked a lot more pot as well, at that point, I love the feeling of it. And I love being high, you know. And so, but the problem with those substances is that they're all depressants in the system and the human system. So you fast forward about 15 years, and I was an opioid addict for 15 years without even knowing that I was. Because opiate, because addiction wasn't on the radar at that point. So we weren't talking about it, I had no idea what was going on. But because of the depressant quality of those substances, I became idle. And we didn't think I wanted to live anymore. And that was, that was probably the first my first big Well, fuck moment, in terms of, you know, I mean, having Crohn's was on what the fuck moment every day, several times a day. But when I got to that place, it was and I knew I had enough pills to do the job. And I knew I could time it so that nobody would find me in time. And so I had a plan and I had the opportunity and I had the drugs and it scared me. So, one day, I really was thinking about it, thinking, I think I'm gonna do this because I just can't, I just can't do this anymore. Well, clearly, I'm still here. So what I did instead was I picked up the phone and I called the crisis line here in Vancouver, and somebody there saved my life just by listening to me and respecting me and hearing my pain you know, guiding me in the right direction. So I I was I was encouraged to sign myself into a psych ward at the hospital, one of the hospitals here, and that's what I did. And I was there for about four weeks. Got some of the counseling I needed. I didn't have access to my pills, you know, I was safe. And while I was there, I met some people who were also trying to stay off alcohol and drugs, and they were going to Narcotics Anonymous meetings across the street every day. So I started going with them to those meetings, I just sit there and wail and cry. People would tell me to keep coming back. So I kept coming back. But last week on the 18th of July, I don't know when this will air, but I celebrated 35 years in sober.

Tanya Gill: 00:05:45

Oh my god. So congratulations, Candace, congrats. Yeah, it's a big, you know, I, I really honor countless that in addition to those 35 years, that it's not like you went out seeking these drugs intentionally to get yourself in. Right. And, and these were drugs that were intended to actually, you know, the intention behind them, especially initially, was to help you try to manage and be able to get through life and without pain and those things. And of course, what we don't know about those opioid drugs is not what we knew them either.

Candace Plattor: 00:06:28

But I know and, you know, in the doctor's defense, in the early 70s, addiction was not on the radar. They didn't know what they were unleashing upon me at the time. But the, but the real problem is that the doctors now know, and they're still doing this. So that's another that's another conversation we can have some time. You know, it's like, don't get me started. Because what the fuck is that about? There's a lot of people and making a lot of money by keeping people addicted. And I get very angry about that.

Tanya Gill: 00:07:01

And so Absolutely, there's a whole economic conversation that we can have, there's a social conversation, there's so many conversations that can be had about addiction, but where I really want to hone in is, is around how you arrived to, to be the founder of love with boundaries and and who do you help and how

Candace Plattor: 00:07:31

I love talking about that. Thank you. So about three years into my recovery. I had been doing other work before that. But I made a decision that I wanted to work in the addiction field and give back some of what I had done some of the health and so we have a an area. I'm in private practice in Vancouver, Canada. And I know you're in Canada, too. But some people listening might not know. We have Vancouver, Washington right below us as well. That Coover is just an amazing place. I love it so much. And we have an area here called the Downtown Eastside. And that's where I found the job was in the Downtown Eastside. And that's the lowest income area of Canada. That's where most of the addicts and alcoholics are people with with in who are practicing addicts. Many people with mental health issues, homelessness, that kind of thing. So I worked there as an addiction counselor for 16 years, saw things got an education that I couldn't have gotten anywhere else. I loved it. I really loved it. And while I was working with the addicts and alcoholics there, their families started to call me. I didn't go out seeking this, they started calling me. I guess maybe their loved ones had said, Oh, I'm seeing this counselor Canvas, you know, so they call canvas. It's like we are at the end of a rope. We don't know what to do. We're so frustrated. We love them. We hate them. We, we can't stand them. We love them. We want to help them. We don't know what to do. And I had no idea what to tell them. There wasn't any education about this. Nobody was doing that kind of work at that point. So I just said, okay, come on in. And the more families I saw, the more I heard, the more I heard the patterns, I could see the patterns of what they were doing with the addicts they loved so much and they were doing a lot of the wrong things that weren't gonna help the addict was gonna keep them stuck in addiction.

Tanya Gill: 00:09:43

Let's talk about some of these patterns. What are some of the patterns that people would that you were consistently seeing?

Candace Plattor: 00:09:49

Yeah, well, you know, we, I kind of umbrella them now. And I call them enabling. It's a buzzword in the addiction field but i have i really like simple definitions. So my simple definition for enabling is when you do something for somebody else that they can actually should be doing for themselves. And if you don't allow them to do it for themselves, they don't learn their own resiliency, they don't, they don't grow up, they suck, they stay stuck where they are. So different kinds of enablers, all kinds of ways to enable, I mean, our government enables, there's so many ways to enable. But the classic ones are things like giving money to an addict, when you know where that money is gonna go, it's gonna go in their arm up their nose, drink it down, you know, some people let their addicts live at home, or not pay any rent, bring drugs and alcohol into the house, kind of party all night, sleep all day, not contribute to the household at all. Somebody else does their laundry, somebody else cooks the meals, they get angry, they punch holes in the walls, they're allowed to do that, you know, those are all kinds of enabling behaviors. And the reason that happens is a couple of reasons. One is that the families just don't know what else to do. They, they love their art, they remember when they were an addict, and they love that person so much. They don't particularly like the behaviors now, but they love them. And they, and they're so scared, they're going to die out there, which many of them do, unfortunately. So they keep them where they can see them, some people drive, they're added to the dealer, they're just you don't have to really do that anymore. You can just call and get it delivered. But they allow that kind of thing, because at least they know where the addict is the right under your nose. But that's not it's just not a good way to deal with it. Because the addict stays stuck in what they're doing. They have no incentive and enabled addict does not recover. Because why should they? Why should I do anything for myself, especially if it's going to be hard, if you're going to do everything for me. So the other reason that people enable. And this is a hard one to wrap your head around. So if you're listening, and you're the loved one of somebody in addiction, I say it with all respect because I too, am a recovering people pleaser. But many family members are people pleasers. And what that really means is that they just hate conflict. Right? They do anything to not have to have conflict. So they don't want to make the the addict angry, because when the addict doesn't get what he or she wants, they're experts at getting angry. They're experts at conflict and chaos, and you know, all that stuff, give me what I want, give it to me right now. So love, you've got the loved ones who don't want that you've got the attitude, know how to manipulate that. And so, my need 20 bucks. Well, mother does not want to get more dad or whoever I don't mean to come down on mother's, but you know, they don't want to have a conflict. So they give them the 20 bucks. And every time that kind of thing happens, the addict stays stuck in addiction. To me, that is not a loving act. It's just not. So I work with families to help them change those behaviors, into things that are more loving, that are actually helpful to get the addict out of addiction. If we stop enabling, we can stop addiction. I see it all the time.

Tanya Gill: 00:13:56

Well, and there are many layers to addiction. And I think that it's really important that we recognize that we have to be we have to also recognize where that addict is in understanding their addiction as well. And, and I want to be very clear about something I am someone who very much supports harm reduction. And I support harm reduction from the perspective of if people are in a space where they're going to use my God, please, please, please let it be safe. Right. And so, you know, and and that harm reduction is is different from what we're talking about. Like there's a difference between enabling and harm reduction.

Candace Plattor: 00:14:43

Sometimes not always, but sometimes. Right?

Tanya Gill: 00:14:46

Right. That's it. Go ahead. No, please go ahead. Do you want to talk about the difference?

Candace Plattor: 00:14:52

Well, you know, if somebody comes we can, if somebody comes to me, wanting to participate in harm reduction rather than abstinence, I will definitely start with them there. My hope for them always, therapeutically, and otherwise will be to help them stop using because that's how life gets better. Life doesn't. Life can improve with harm reduction, for sure, life can keep you harm reduction can keep you alive, you know, but they're still dependent on something, and they're still hiding from something, they're still hiding from those feelings that are difficult, because as soon as those come up, they're going to use something. So for me, you know, I prefer to work with an abstinence model that's full of choice, it's always a choice. And if your choice is to use harm reduction as your model, then that's okay with me, as long as you know, as long as you can stick to that the problem. The issue I have with harm reduction is that addiction has addiction is progressive, and it has tolerance in it involved in it. And what tolerance means is that you need more, as time goes on, you need more, especially if it's a substance, but even a behavior, you need more of the same thing to get the hit that you want to get the buzz, you want to get the hit that you want. So, you know, I've seen people try to control their drinking, try to control their their using, try to control their shopping, addiction, try to control how much porn they watch. And usually works for a little while it works for a minute, you know, minute and a half. And then they need more, you know, this much porn isn't enough for me, I want to watch porn for three hours every day instead of an hour and a half. So, you know, it just develops into full blown addiction, often with harm reduction. So it's not like people stay in harm reduction for a long period of time, they don't usually. So I understand what you're saying. And I support people to start wherever they start. And to do better than they've been doing in terms of self harm. And to move it along, so that they don't have to be addictive. That's, and that's where I'm trying to go.

Tanya Gill: 00:17:19

Right. And that's a really important piece of this though, like it is like, and then this is where I want to say like that enabling piece can kind of get very, very gray, right? If your addict, you know, is going to go and use, and they will either go and use in the streets with a friend or they will go to a safe consumption site. It becomes a question around is this harm reduction? Or is this enabling or is this both? And, and I think that that is really, very, very individual and what it is in and of itself. But what we're talking about is the awareness that comes around. If you have an addict in your life, are you enabling them because of a fear of them? Because it's easier than dealing with the situation, whatever. When someone comes to you canvas and says, This addict is in my life, and I'm terrified that they're going to lose their mind, if I start putting up boundaries, what do you say to them?

Candace Plattor: 00:18:27

Well, you know, if you don't, what I would say is if the adults start putting up boundaries, they're probably they'll lose their mind anyway. So, you know, we don't have to go from zero to 150. In a split second, there are all kinds of boundaries that can be set before you say, you're out of here. This is this is something that people misunderstand a lot. Well, I don't want to set boundaries or check them out. I can't take them out. Well, we're not there yet. We're not there at a place of kicking them out yet, unless we are the other things that we can do first, in terms of setting boundaries, having consequences that matter to the addict, for example. Honey, I'm not going to be doing your laundry anymore. I'm going to show you how to do the laundry. I'm going to teach you how to do your laundry, and then it's up to you to do it. And if you don't do it, your clothes will be dirty. So that's the boundary. That's the consequence. If that consequence I'm making I'm really simplifying here. But if that consequence, if that consequence matters to the person, I don't want to always be in dirty clothes. I want to be able to clean clothes. If that matters to the person, they're going to pay attention when you teach them how to use laundry. If it doesn't matter to them, then they're gonna be stinking up your house with their laundry and their dirty clothes every time they're around you like I'm from Charlie Brown. Right? So then you They have another boundaries set, which might be honey, you smell, you know, you're in a community of family here, and you need to have a shower and you need to go do your laundry. And if they don't do the laundry, then the boundary has to be set with the consequences gonna matter to the adults, because adults don't like to change, they want to keep it the way it is. And they want you to keep it the way it is, they have an investment in you, as the family member continuing to enable them, they want you to continue to alert them except that they really don't. What they really want is for you to love them enough to do what's right for them. And let them know that this is from a place of love you love them enough to say, no.

Tanya Gill: 00:20:46

You love them enough to say no. Yep.

Candace Plattor: 00:20:52

And you're willing, and you're willing to put up with, you know, the anger because they're going to I mean that. I think it says this in The Big Book of Narcotics Anonymous, the basic types of Narcotics Anonymous, that know, is a word that addicts it's the one word that addicts hate to hear the most.

Tanya Gill: 00:21:13

It's the one word that addicts hate to hear the most. Yeah. And so love with boundaries is really about with

Candace Plattor: 00:21:22

love, right? Love with boundaries, yes. Because if we're not loving with boundaries, then we're not, we're not dealing with that person with our own self respect. Our self respect is taking a hit. If we don't have boundaries with people who are bulldozing over us. And self respect to me, it is the most important thing that we either have or don't have. And we can't go down to the corner and buy it at the 711. And I cannot give you yours, and you cannot give me mine, it's an inside job that each of us needs to do. Right. And if we don't do it, we can't trust ourselves. We can't respect ourselves, we don't know who we are. It's so important. And when there are boundaries in a relationship, especially one that's teetering on abusive. You know, it's, it's unhealthy, and it's not going very well.

Tanya Gill: 00:22:27

And I think as as loved ones, and I've seen this time and again, in different situations, with clients that I've I've had over the years that

Unknown: 00:22:40

that sometimes that addiction

Tanya Gill: 00:22:41

kind of seems to just seep in, and people don't even realize what it is until it feels like it's destroying things. And, and then the person who all of a sudden wants to, for example, step in and love with boundaries is like, but it's all my fault. Like I let this happen. And and I understand that that can be a piece of this and and what do you say to someone who then all of a sudden turns it into to their problem? It's their fault that they shame

Candace Plattor: 00:23:14

and their guilt? Yeah. Yeah. Well, what I like to tell people is that you didn't cause the addiction, I don't care what the addiction is, I don't care who the person is. I don't care what you've done or not done. You have not caused the addiction. And the reason you haven't, is because the addict is making a choice to stay in addiction addicts, I can tell you as an addict myself, we don't. We don't choose to become addicts. Nobody says to the I don't think anybody says to themselves, gee, I think I'll be an addict. That'll be fun. You know, nobody says that. But like you say, as it progresses, as you know, we find ourselves in this place of oh my god, my life's a mess. It's horrible. I don't know what to do. I'm like, I don't want to feel this. So I'll just use some more. And that's how, that's how it goes. Right? And it's a choice that people make, the way that I became 35 years clean and sober. Is because I made the choice every day to not use drugs, whether you see it as a disease, or you see it as a genetic predisposition, or you see it is anything, anything underneath all of that. It's a choice to either use or not use every day, every nanosecond of the day. Yeah, for a while until an every addict who's in recovery from anything knows that's true. And so the only way we recover,

Tanya Gill: 00:24:53

right and so for someone who who knows those that are either in addiction or, or are addicts, but have not used for whatever length of time, I think it's really important that we revisit that, that is their choice and that it's really important to celebrate every single day that an addict is not using. So again, I want to come back to Kansas, congratulations. And I'm back from my understanding an AE, they call it happy birthday. Yeah, but you know, happy happy 35th birthday, because that's, that is beautiful. And, and, and every day a choice. Well, what

Candace Plattor: 00:25:41

I know, because I've been around in recovery for a long time, and I've seen other people make different choices who've been around and recovery for a long time, is that if I don't take care of myself holistically, all the time, you know, I've got to be careful, because I could relapse just I could make the choice, the choice to relapse, I could make that choice, just like anybody else does. If I'm not working on myself, if I'm not sharing what I need to share, or if I'm not proud of myself, and grateful and appreciative and all those things. So I do that every day. Because I don't want to go back to the sideboard. I don't want to go back to that life. I don't want I love the life I have today. I never ever thought that would ever happen.

Tanya Gill: 00:26:29

And, and just so we're clear, it does not mean that you've been cured of Crohn's let's let's, let's revisit that you have not been cured of Crohn's?

Candace Plattor: 00:26:38

No. And,

Tanya Gill: 00:26:41

and I do know it to be a debilitating disease because of my own personal relationship with it, secondarily, and, and I'm sorry for that as well, my friend. But what I find so interesting is you talk about as an addict, how critical it is for you to take care of yourself, and to be really intentional about how you are caring for yourself and truly loving who you are every day. And,

Candace Plattor: 00:27:13

well, I start with liking myself and my

Tanya Gill: 00:27:18

sister. But but here's the thing, the choice not to use, whatever that is, whatever the thing is, whatever the vice fiction, whatever it is, is an app,

Candace Plattor: 00:27:33

whatever, whatever is going to take me away from myself. Right? Whatever is going to take me away from myself and yourself.

Tanya Gill: 00:27:39

Whatever is going that choice not to use whatever is going to take you away from yourself is an act of love. And in and in the work that you do with family members with love with boundaries. It's also the act of love, as a person with an addict in their life and being able to tap into themselves take care of themselves and do what that addict needs to be doing stay

Candace Plattor: 00:28:05

healthy, so that they can saturate with boundaries as well. Exactly. And to take that just a step further to things if you want your attitude to change, and everybody does. And you're not willing to change. Not only is that not fair, it won't work. So when you want your addict to change, and live life in a different way, and do things differently, the thing with loved ones as they need to make their changes, usually first. Because if you're enabling an addict, I'm just gonna stay on level for as long as they possibly can be as manipulative as they can. So they can keep getting that enablement. Did I just make up a word? Sure, you know,

Tanya Gill: 00:28:54

I'm having a picture I'm picturing, it's like, the adult has to make the changes because the child in this case, the addict, the one who's compromised, however you want to look at it doesn't have the ability to start the ball rolling. So the adult has to model it the adults that's using adult, the healthiest person in the relationship.

Candace Plattor: 00:29:14

That's right. That's right. Mom has to say, they have to say, I love you so much. That I'm not willing to support you in active addiction. I can't watch this anymore. I won't watch this anymore. I love you so much that tears my heart out. Many addicts don't know they're so self absorbed. They don't know that other people are struggling around them. But I love you so much that I am not willing to support you in active addiction anymore, because I don't want you to be in that life. But I will support active addict active recovery. So when you're ready to be in recovery, and you really are then let me know and I will be there in every way that I can. Oh my god. out. But I love you enough to say no to you

Tanya Gill: 00:30:04

enough to say no. And I love me enough to say no.

Candace Plattor: 00:30:08

And I respect myself enough to say no to you. Yes, sometimes there's exactly right.

Tanya Gill: 00:30:18

In that world before you're ready to start those boundaries with that loved one potentially.

Candace Plattor: 00:30:24

Can you say the first part again, sometimes what

Tanya Gill: 00:30:27

is going to I said it sometimes I think that those family members, you know, need to have have some real reflection into where they are themselves first.

Candace Plattor: 00:30:39

That's exactly why that's why I do what I do. Yeah,

Tanya Gill: 00:30:43

yeah. And, you know, having that opportunity to work with you then bridges, that, that individual healing with the boundaries, the love with boundaries to support that it active,

Candace Plattor: 00:30:57

and I, and I just want to add to, you know, you're asking about the loved ones who feel so much shame and think that it's their fault, and they caused it. So the real reason that you didn't cause an idol, most families are so loving, there are some families that aren't, and, you know, they do things that aren't so good. But the real reason that no matter what you've done or haven't done, hasn't caused the addicts addiction, is because addiction is ultimately a choice that the addict makes staying in addiction, continuing to use the addiction, we cannot make another person's choices for them. It's not how this planet runs. You know, I'm not making up the rules. I'm not saying, Well, this is how it is. It's just how it is. Yeah, you know, so you can't make an addict, an addict. You can't make them be addicted, and you can't make them recover, that you can start changing what you're doing, make it a little more uncomfortable. For the addict to stay in active addiction. We make it comfortable for an addict to be in addiction. Why should they ever move out of that? How is that helpful? How is that loving for the person that's addicted. But you didn't cause it, there's no way you cause it. What you're doing, however, is you're contributing to keeping it going. That's what you're doing. But you didn't cause it and it's not your fault. And as soon as you can change some of the ways that you're contributing to it, the whole thing will change. And

Tanya Gill: 00:32:39

it's amazing, I'm hearing that it really can be the beginning can be as simple as one conversation that leads to another and the unfolding of boundaries that create kind of the container around that relationship that says, we're in active recovery versus we're in addiction, right? Like just the walls are absent. It's a free for all.

Candace Plattor: 00:33:05

And I love the way you said that. That's exactly right. That container that safety, that love that love. I don't want to watch you be in active addiction anymore. It's horrible. It's horrible. feels horrible for us.

Tanya Gill: 00:33:21

Yeah. Yeah. Candice, this has been such an incredible conversation. If our listeners want to reach out to you what is the best way to get in touch?

Candace Plattor: 00:33:31

Alright, um, it's pretty easy, actually. But I'll explain it. My website is lovewithboundaries.com. And my team and I, we, we offer a free 30 minute consultation to anyone who will fill out our questionnaire and it's not a long, not one of those long questions is short, just giving us the information about what you're going through what's happening for you. So the link for that is on the website. And once you fill that out, and you send it to us as soon as we get it because we know that addiction does not wait. So as soon as we get it, I have a wonderful, wonderful intake worker, she is so warm and beautiful. She will get in touch with you right away, right away to set up this call this zoom call this free consultation. So she she assesses you know what you're going through, she tells you what we can do for you. If it's a fit, we go forward. If it isn't a fit, there is no obligation for you to work with us because you've had the consultation, no strings attached at all. And so you know, you can reach out to us and get some help immediately. Thank you cam you don't have to deal with this anymore. And you I mean, it's a process, it's not like, bang, it's gonna all go away. But if you don't reach out, if nothing changes, nothing changes. And that's the tagline on my website. And another way to say that is that if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten. So if you're ready to make a change, if you're ready to see, even if you don't feel ready to make a change, but you think you want to make a change, reach out to us, let's talk about it. Let's see what we can help you. Because we're not going to say to you, if you come to us, we're not going to say to you, okay, you have to take your product out of the house, that isn't how we work at all. Right, we're going to work with you, every family is different. We're going to work with you to see what you're willing to do and what you're willing to say and how we'll help you language it. And when people go forward with us, and they start working with us, we offer we offer unlimited, basically, email, email and text support to our clients. I don't know of anybody else who's doing that. So. So if, if something comes up, if something urgent comes up, you don't know how to deal with it. Your session isn't till next Tuesday, and it's Thursday. And you need help you text us you email us, Your counselor will get back to you right away as soon as possible, and help you through it. So we hold your hand through this process, it isn't easy. But it isn't easy to live the way you've been living either. So it's about making a choice about am I willing to learn how to do some things differently so that I can have a better life, my attic can have a better life. The family can maybe go on holiday together, have Christmas,

Tanya Gill: 00:37:03

right. And when and when people reach out to you they you know, they can have a conversation about change readiness for themselves and the people in their lives. And, and in that conversation, you know, find out, you know, how you how we they may be able to help and then how you may be able to help them. And I'm so grateful that you are in the world kindness and you know, help people have a voice to support? Because it's very I know, I know, I've known very I've known very far too many people who have who have been loved ones of people in deep and dangerous addictions. And and, you know, there is a lot of focus on the addict. And, and, and it's very

Candace Plattor: 00:37:55

hard, not it, not it not in a good way. Right, exactly. And

Tanya Gill: 00:37:59

it's often very judgmental. And instead, you know, what you offer is this, this space of really truly it coming from that place of love. It doesn't mean that it's not going to be hard, it doesn't mean it's not going to be sticky, doesn't mean there's not going to be a bunch of what the fox, but as you continue to move forward, it can unstuck, right and that's really beautiful. Candace, thank you so much for this conversation. You are a gift. I appreciate you so much. Thank you, to our listeners, to our listeners. Thank you so much for joining us, Candace Any closing words for our for our friends,

Candace Plattor: 00:38:35

you know, I haven't told people that, that I've written a book that might help them as well if they want to read the book before they reach out or after whatever the book is, is called Loving an addict loving yourself. The top 10 survival tips for loving someone with an addiction. It's one USA and International Book Awards, which surprised the hell out of me because I was an addict. And I didn't think anything like that would ever happen to me. But a lot of people get a lot of help from my book. So I want to just let people know what's available. And it's on Amazon and any country that has Amazon. Amazing. But the closing words that I would like to say would be please don't give up. Don't ever give up. You know. This can be stopped. This can be changed. I promise you it can be. I see it all the time. I'm living proof of it. So if you need help, we are here to help you we are wanting to help you. We are waiting to hear from you. We're here.