Men’s Mental Health and Wellbeing with Dr. Peter Kellett

Tanya Gill: 00:00:08

Hi friend, I'm Tanya Gill Welcome to lighten up and unstuck your What the fuck. Together we explore the ways through life's stickiness moments, and how to live with more peace, joy, love and gratitude. We're going to talk honestly about what isn't easy so you can discover the light within you that will carry you forward. My friend, this podcast is about you in real life, your body, mind and soul and the opportunity to not only live your best, but shine doing it hello friends welcome to lighten up and unstuck your What the fuck? I'm so glad you're here. In this conversation, I am going to introduce you to someone very special to me. I have the privilege of introducing you to none other than Dr. Peter kelut. Peter is a men's coach, a men's health and wellbeing expert, a registered nurse, a researcher, Reiki practitioner, light worker and Empath, who has spent most of his career studying and teaching about men's health and well being. Today, I invited him on the show to talk about men's health and well being in a little bit more depth. What makes this conversation so special is that Dr. Peter kelut Not only is really a specialist in this area of men's health and well being, but he also is my husband. So without further ado, I hope you enjoy this conversation with Peter callate. Husband to Tanya Gill. So first of all, welcome, Dr. Peter callate. My love. Thank you for joining us.

Dr. Kellett: 00:02:00

Thank you for having me. I heard happy to be here.

Tanya Gill: 00:02:03

I'm so excited. You're here. I really am. Thank you. So Honey, let's cut to tell them the story of what we were talking about you and I were chatting and you said, there's some really interesting research that just came out of UBC, the University of British Columbia, and listen to this. And what you shared was some of the most common stressors that men are experiencing right now. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that research? Just a quick?

Dr. Kellett: 00:02:39

Sure. Yeah, it's it was information that was collected from their website called Heads Up Guys, which is a website that was basically created to try and support men with depression and suicidal feelings and, and their, their family and support people as well. And, and so as part of that website, they have a little survey that people can complete a test that basically says, you know, what are your main stressors in life. And, interestingly, the number one stressor was a lack of purpose or meaning in life. And that was 60% of the men.

Tanya Gill: 00:03:18

So okay, so first of all, I want to jump in 60% of men said, they struggled with a lack of purpose or meaning. Now, this was not a small sample of people. It was almost 72,000 people that responded to this. Yes. So 60% of those people are saying they're struggling with a lack of purpose and meaning. Do you think that's because the results came in during the pandemic?

Dr. Kellett: 00:03:47

I don't think that that was uniquely I think that probably the pandemic may have, as it has for a lot of people. I think it may have sort of emphasize that for people, I think. So it may have influenced. But I think it's probably speaks to a larger pattern,

Tanya Gill: 00:04:05

the larger pattern, so dealing, you know, having spent so much of your career dealing with men's mental health issues and challenges, and seeing men's health in a larger perspective than just beyond mental health. What do you think this is about?

Dr. Kellett: 00:04:24

Well, I think I think it's really related to the way society, you know, the expectations that society puts on men. And, and if we think about some of the ways that we define success in men, like how much they earn, how are they getting promoted at work? All these things are really tied into the market economy measures.

Tanya Gill: 00:04:48

It's about what they do, what they do, what

Dr. Kellett: 00:04:51

they own, what they, you know, what toys do they have, how big is their house, all these kinds of things, and I think, I think speaks to the fact Those things are not really what contributes to people feeling good about themselves or the world. And, and really, I think that purpose is one of those key things. And I know that, you know, this is a life coach, and that having a clear purpose in life really is one of those things that can kind of carry you through difficult times. And it. And I also find this interesting because even back in ancient Greece, they used to talk about a term called eudaimonia. And Eudaimonia was a term, which a lot of people sort of simply translated into happiness, but it was actually not really about happiness, it was more about living well. And some people would define it as having a sense of purpose. And so if you've got a sense of purpose, you know, the bumps that come in everyday life, are not going to throw you off as much because you have a larger goal that you're working towards. But I think that this is sort of belying the fact that a lot of men in society are not really feeling a connection to something bigger.

Tanya Gill: 00:06:16

So when you say something bigger, are you talking about men feeling more isolation than ever? Is that what you mean?

Dr. Kellett: 00:06:25

I think it's, it's more having a sense of, of purpose. I mean, and I would put this on two levels, you know, a sense of soul's purpose, you know, that we came to this, this life with a mission, but that there's also a sense of purpose in terms of what we're doing in life. And I think that in, in the way, you've set things up in societies, then all are about what you do for your job, right, and not so much about the bigger goals. And a lot of times when people talk about it. And lots of people have talked about this, I mean, we can think about people like Simon Sinek, who didn't start with why it's about having a sense of purpose. And it's about knowing why you're doing something where you're intending to go with it, so that each act that we do in life is just part of something big.

Tanya Gill: 00:07:20

It's those 1% changes that keep moving us towards that big why whatever it is. Yeah, you know, and I'm gonna come back to it, one, because I do think that, that the pandemic, has created a bit of an opening for people, and a bit of a sense of, I don't know if I want to use the word urgency, but a different awareness about purpose, and also about time, right, like, when the world slowed down, we were also inundated with a lot of pressure and a lot of stress and a lot of stuff. And we many of us went into survival mode. And our purpose at that time was really about survival. And all the moving pieces that we were constantly trying to navigate, right, like, even in our own home, you know, we had one person teaching and another one in school and another one working in a restaurant, and we were navigating working from home, and there were a lot of moving pieces. And in all of that, I think that we also then move to a new space of reflection, and a new space of when I get through this, I want to have more clarity about where I want to go with the rest of my life, because I feel like I didn't have a lot of control in my life during the pandemic. And so I do see that there are a lot of people who seem to be shifting and opening and honestly, spiritually, there have been massive shifts, you and I have experienced them, but so have a lot of others. And when I, you know my thing of when I think about coaching women and women in their journey of experiencing a sense of purpose, it really comes back down to values, right? And so with men, do you think men are really grounded in their values these days?

Dr. Kellett: 00:09:28

Well, I think it's a hard question and answer in a general sense, I think there probably are quite a few men who are grounded in their values. But I think, I think some of the values that are imposed on men by the expectations of masculinity, and those traditional expectations have assigned value to things which maybe are not going to feed their soul. Like how much they're earning. Like everything being about their job. And they think that what the pandemic created, I think, for men, as well as for everybody else, was sort of a break in that routine, which helped them see that, hey, like, my job isn't everything. And the people around me are really important. And a lot of people have experienced loss of different things during, during the pandemic, and people and people, and and I think that that is also sort of underlined for men as well as women. What's important in life a little bit more, and cause them to sort of say, Is this really what I want? And so, so I think that's probably a contributing factor to this finding. But I do think it's part of a bigger pattern, and that I think a lot of men sort of taken on the expectations have been told to them what they're supposed to do, and just follow than what's expected, done, what their, what their cultural students told them they're supposed to do.

Tanya Gill: 00:11:11

Okay, so So what do you what do you see men's cultural stews, predominantly telling them to do? I mean, I know that historically, women's cultural students were to be quiet, to be demure, or to be subservient to not have a voice to keep secrets hide, you know, if I if we go down that road of what it meant to be a good girl, for example.

Dr. Kellett: 00:11:42

Yeah, I mean, I think that for men, I think that there's definitely been a pattern of career success being very important. earning potential. And, you know, we know the breadwinner title is very much tied to men still, even though in many cases, they're not necessarily the breadwinner. But I think there's still a lot of expectation around that. And some men kind of put that pressure on themselves around it. I think, I think having the good job, the job that comes with the benefits and, and status and leadership roles, things like that, a lot of times men have been attracted to. So. So some men may be picking jobs that, that align with the idea of being masculine, you know, the jobs that they associate with men holding. But it also makes you wonder how many men chose those jobs because they thought that was the expectation, but really, actually had an affinity for some other kinds of jobs that have been allocated to the realm of women.

Tanya Gill: 00:13:00

Okay, so I'm gonna jump right in here, because Dr. Peter kelut, you have a PhD, you are not a physician, you are a nurse. So, you know, how many times as a man, when you were in nursing, were you confused? As, as, as being a doctor?

Dr. Kellett: 00:13:26

In the early part of my career, pretty much every day? I would have, I would have patients assume that I was a doctor because I was a man. And I would have to say, No, I'm your nurse. And it was, I think that that has changed over the years. There are definitely as a much more recognition of men being in caring careers like, like nursing. But there's still an awful lot of pressure on men not to proceed these, these roles that have been allocated to the realm of women. Because even in recent research, I've done research with men in nursing, and even then, that a lot of the men are still getting asked by their families, like why do you want to be a nurse? Like, why are you doing this? Why don't you You're smart, why don't you be a doctor? And, and so there's still a lot of bias around that. And we still see still see stereotypes, which are waning a little bit but the assumption that if you're a man and nursing that you're gay, for example, which is not the case in the vast majority of cases, but those stereotypes are still there.

Tanya Gill: 00:14:58

So at You know, I think that, like you said that that lack of purpose sometimes can come from feeling like, we're so busy trying to fill the roles that are expected of us that we don't get an opportunity to be attached to what authentically matters and who, who we are.

Dr. Kellett: 00:15:22

And I think I think this is actually a really key element of it as well. And I think that the very expectations that are put on men around how they're supposed to act, how they're supposed to be, means that a lot of men are not being as authentic, leave them as they need to. And we know, we know that when people aren't authentic, that it's upsetting that it actually causes trauma.

Tanya Gill: 00:15:53

Okay, but okay, so but let's talk about that. Because that authenticity, that's a really fucked up cycle, because then I've seen it with many men I've dated in the past. And also in moments with you, where you were an you are a very sensitive, very loving person. And as a man, it's, I think that I've observed that you struggle to be emotional, ie cry in front of me. And when you do cry in front of me, you're often very apologetic. And well, I see you cry, I see it as extremely beautiful. And I see it as part of your healing. I also recognize that I've heard other women say to other men, I love things like Don't be a pussy. Men don't fucking cry. Toughen up. Like, and I've heard that too. So then I think that's a cultural stupid, bullshit thing. But there's that line of authenticity around like, there's the judgment, there's a motion, men aren't supposed to show emotion that is raw and real like that, in a lot of realms of life.

Dr. Kellett: 00:17:24

Well, and I, I think that this is a really challenging element of being a man in this day and age. Because I think that, as, as a man, I know, I've heard lots of women say that they want a man to be emotional, that they want, want them to do those things sensitive and sensitive, emotional. But my experience and the experience of a lot of men I know, is that when men are openly emotional, it's often not received very well. Because I think it's that I think what a lot of times when women are saying that is they're saying, I want the man to express their feelings about me. And I want them to be tender and loving to me. But if it comes to the point where the man is emotional, now it becomes something that they someone they have to take care of, or as an extra load on them. And I think the problem is in society, women are still being allocated a disproportionate amount of the responsibility for child care and looking after kids and, and family roles and things like that. And so I think that when the man is emotional, on top of that, there was like us too much. I also think that

Tanya Gill: 00:18:43

way, but I'm just gonna jump in and say, when when you cry, if you cry, when you cry, I don't think I jump out and go, it's too much. But I also am not going to own it or take responsibility for it. i i Hold empathy for you and honor what you're in, but it's not my responsibility. Right. And that's, I think, that's that piece of trusting yourself to know that you don't have to take responsibility for someone who loves emotions, in partnership.

Dr. Kellett: 00:19:15

Well, yes. And, and I also when I was making those points that wasn't so much about our own context, as much as things I've seen and heard and conversations I've had with

Tanya Gill: 00:19:27

people, but we do have a perfectly imperfect relationships and things. And your, your patience is tested on a regular basis. Yes, you can say, Okay, well,

Dr. Kellett: 00:19:42

I think everybody's patience is tested at different times. So I'm sure I test your patience as well. But I think I think the key elements to this is rather than saying these are hard and fast rules I think a lot of men really struggle with With expressing those, those emotions because it's not always received well, and and the reality is, is that being raised as a boy, is, is somewhat traumatic. Because even as a young child, you're being told, suck it up, no, rub some dirt in it. Like be be a big boy Don't cry

Tanya Gill: 00:20:25

toughen out, toughen up.

Dr. Kellett: 00:20:27

And whereas I think young girls are allowed little more latitude around being emotional. And so boys learn really early on to control those emotions. And there's research actually showing that, that boys as young as 18 months are already controlling their emotions. And a lot of people will go like, well, how is a kid that young? Take that on. And the reality is, they've all sponges, same fucking role modeling, they look around, and they see how people act. And, and if you think about how many times even people meet a baby in there, oh, Thai lady, the things they say about that child where they go, like, Oh, he's gonna have lots of girlfriends, or he's so stressful, strongly, he's gonna be a big guy, you know, or show, you know, and I've seen cases where there's little kids are like two and three years old, where the parents are going, like, show us your guns and try and get them to flex and do these kinds of things. And so there's that side of it. And these expectations that men put on each other around policing, acceptable masculinity. But I think that there's also I think, a lot of things that are internalized by women in their own socialization, and things which, you know, implements their own attraction profile towards men, or what they think is nice or good about a man. And so it isn't, it's a really tough line for a lot of men to navigate. And so because of that, I think most of us, including myself, in that struggle, to know, you know, exactly how to present sometimes, and most men are very practiced at putting on a mask. You know, putting on this mask that sorts of everything's okay. And, and not showing emotion. And it's such a consistent thing. That's some people who work in psychology with men have actually documented this pattern. There's a psychologist from the US called Ron Levant, who, who's written books with psychology of men. And he describes something called normative alexithymia.

Tanya Gill: 00:22:56

Oh, god, you're talking about this. This is wild. Normative, Alexia elects alexithymia alexithymia. Okay, so tell our listeners what normative alexithymia is?

Dr. Kellett: 00:23:10

Well, alexithymia, in general, is where people don't have words for feelings, a means no, right? Time, etc. Whereas the words find me and for feelings. And it usually was something that was seen in people with severe trauma, where they wouldn't really be able to express feelings, because basically, were in shutdown. They weren't able to, to really describe the feelings because they were having to dissociate from them. And as he started working with men in his practice, he started noticing that when he started asking men like, how are you feeling? But these men weren't able to actually put into words what their feelings were, because, in many ways, as they were growing up, they weren't allowed to have the feelings.

Tanya Gill: 00:23:52

So they so it was kind of like, like, I

Dr. Kellett: 00:23:56

feel good that, you know, like, very nice stuff. And when he was trying to dig, dig down and say, like, well, how does it feel when you have to say goodbye to your kid after you've gone through a divorce? That? And you said, Yeah, but how does it feel and they just need to describe it

Tanya Gill: 00:24:13

couldn't go into devastating, heartbreaking, challenging those like they just couldn't go there. Yeah.

Dr. Kellett: 00:24:23

And so. So I think that's a symptom of the fact that these men have undergone trauma in many ways in terms of being able to authentically not only live in their emotions, but even describe them authentically to someone else. And And incidentally, that's a pretty important skill in order to process your emotions. And so at least the consequences

Tanya Gill: 00:24:51

and it's funny, because as you're talking about, I was thinking about how we go back to as kids right so as kids we We do we are socialized into living in our emotions to the way that is considered appropriate to those around us who are forming our cultural stew. Right? And, and then as we get older, I was thinking about like social groups, right? Because girls and women tend to surround themselves with larger groups or larger connections circles than men, men tend to only have one or two, or a handful of close relationships, women tend to have larger ones. And it's been my experience that for the most part, well, not the most part, that the people in my inner circle, my High Council, obviously, like, the feelings aren't just laid out on the table. They're like ripped out of my soul guts and slayed on the table on display. Right? And there's no question in my mind that that is what kind of relationship we have, that the emotions can be that raw and vulnerable and real. I also understand that for men, it can be a lot harder to have even one person in their life that's like that.

Dr. Kellett: 00:26:17

Yeah, it's definitely challenging for men. And what they can see is that for a lot of men as they're growing up, they know that if they express too much emotion that the other boys are going to call them policies that are gonna call it tell them that they're wimps. They're gonna imply that they're girly. And so they learned early that they can't really share these things.

Tanya Gill: 00:26:44

So the only emotions that are acceptable are like the joy, the happiness, the excitement, or the anger rage. Right.

Dr. Kellett: 00:26:51

And, but the issue of having, I mean, incidentally, The number two thing in this in the stress test was loneliness. Yeah, and, and so this loneliness, I think comes from a lot of different places. I mean, first of all, if you're not able to be authentic to yourself, you're gonna feel lonely even from yourself. But on top of that, as you said, you know, a lot of men don't have many relationships in their life where they can get emotional support. In fact, social support is one of the biggest predictors of mental well being. And, and certainly in men, we know the research shows that their social support networks are really shallow. And that, even if they've got one or two people that are, they're really close to, they're still very cautious to share really emotional things. And so their relationships are often quite different. Now, I don't want to imply that men never have close relationships. I've gotten a couple of good friends where I share emotional things, and they share emotional things with me. But it takes a while for men to get to a place of trust around that. And for some men, they're terrified to go there.

Tanya Gill: 00:28:13

It takes women time, too, though I don't think that's specific to gender. I think that's specific to life experience.

Dr. Kellett: 00:28:22

And, and I think that the other thing the research sort of tells us is that, because men often don't have a lot of close friends to give them emotional support, they tend to depend on the women in their lives as their main source of emotional support, sometimes to the point of dysfunction,

Tanya Gill: 00:28:41

right. And I think that maybe that's really the purpose, if you will, for wanting to have you on and have this conversation is because women, if women are serving as that primary emotional support to their partner, and their partner is struggling with one of those things like feeling a lack of purpose, or feeling loneliness. I, I really, it's important that our listeners understand it's not our responsibility to fix, but we want to know how to best be there for you, how to support you how to love you, and how to help you and other men. So like, what do you say to our listeners?

Dr. Kellett: 00:29:33

Well, again, it's always tough to give like blanket advice, because everybody's different, but I, I would first sort of say, be conscious of some of the challenges that many men are facing and sharing some of these things. It can be really frustrating when they're not sharing your feelings with you. But there may be, they may be actually having genuine difficulty articulating and it may seem kind of silly When you first start having a conversation with him, like, why can't you tell me how you feel? So I think some patients around that it's probably good. I think it's good to keep in mind, you know, you'll know your own partner's social network and who they've got. And keep in mind that if they don't have close friends who are people they can really trust and open up to, that they may be a little more dependent on you. And I'm not saying that that is your responsibility to do that. But it's just maybe to just be a little gentle in, in addressing that, with them. I think that what I would say, in my own experience in my own life, and also the water learning in terms of doing work with men, and as a men's coach now is recognizing, I think a lot of, and it's not just men that do this, but they tend to blame their feelings on other people causing their feelings. But at the end of the day, we have to own our feelings, it's our reaction that causes those feelings. It's lousy when there's a bad thing that's happened to us. But but how we react to it is still our responsibility. So I think encouraging men to take advantage of therapy, encouraging men to seek out friendships that are meaningful, encouraging them to, to look out for a men's group, or, or something, and there are

Tanya Gill: 00:31:45

a really great podcast that's going to be coming up, right? So my friends, Peter is actually going to be starting a podcast called meta man, M E T, T, a man, meta man, meta means loving kindness. And so stay tuned for that. But in the meantime, you can totally visit his website, Metta man.com. But that was one of the things was so important to you is, is, is like you are part of a men's community. Now that's been quite important to you. And it's, and you see, you have a vision for building a community, a community where men had to have a safe space where they can come and be, and grow.

Dr. Kellett: 00:32:33

I think that a lot of men are really craving such a community, they just don't know where to go for it. And it seems like online environments are actually working quite well, which is one of the reasons why Heads Up Guys was created as an online community for men with depression is that it was, it's kind of been shown in research that men are often feel a little less threatened doing that. But yeah, my vision for men and men is that to create a community where men feel safe, and a community where men support one another, but also call each other on their shit. And encourage them towards growth, and encourage them towards integrity to themselves and to those around them. And the reason why I chose the term metta is that meta is a Pali word, which most people know in the context of metta meditation, which is meditation, where you first express love to yourself and support to yourself. And then outward to the people around you. And eventually, to people you don't know or maybe are not your friends, and eventually to the whole world. And I thought it was a perfect analogy for what kind of community we needed to create for men. And the men needed to learn to love themselves. They needed to start, you know, recognizing that however they show up in the world, because there's lots of ways to show up as a man in the world, that there's beauty in that, that there's, there's wonderful things in diversity and all men have to be the same. Regardless, you know, no matter what, what they do, no matter what the sexual orientation, no matter what their gender presentation is, or how they dress or any of those kinds of things. There's beauty in all of it. And there, there's room for that kind of diversity and then fact that makes the strongest men and, and part of recognizing that diversity is within ourselves is also recognizing, alright, the light part of ourselves. Everybody likes the white part.

Tanya Gill: 00:34:49

Let's talk about it. Everybody wants to talk about how happy and good and all the things totally

Dr. Kellett: 00:34:54

but also those shadow elements of ourselves those parts, which, you know, have been planted there for whatever reason through childhood or trauma or experiences, and recognizing that, you know, we have to sort of pay attention to those things too, and work with those things, sometimes to transform them, or sometimes just how to navigate those things. And so the vision for metta man is really to create a space where men can, can come find out learn more, in a way that's not too threatening to them, hopefully connect with other men Connect for with have discussions about things that matter. And I'm hoping through the, you know, through the podcast early sort of explore some of these issues that we've been talking about today, as well as many others. Because the truth is, is that men in general, have a lot of things they need to work on. That despite the fact that in many ways, they've had a lot of advantage in the world. They're still dying more than women and most of the leading causes of death, their suicide rate is still really high. There are not good health outcomes. There's lots of things which, which could be improved by just creating an environment where men can be authentic, where they don't have to be afraid to ask for help. Well,

Tanya Gill: 00:36:21

I think what's so fucking hilarious about this is obviously I'm very passionate about self love. And some people are like, self love, self love, self love. But I'm like, No, it's really just about leaning into space of trusting yourself and knowing yourself so that you can live authentically. It's it's not about ego, it's not voting the bullshit. What you're describing for men is exactly so you're kind of this is the wild thing, Peters kind of the male version of Tanya, except not because he's Peter Keller, Dr. Peter kelut. And I'm just,

Dr. Kellett: 00:36:55

she's not just anything,

Tanya Gill: 00:36:56

and my credentials, were a fairy. And, and, and, and when when people meet us, or maybe even hear us, you can see like, we're quite different people. But we complement each other really beautifully. And Peter's vision for metta man is so incredible, because I agree like, you know, we have had this, we've gone through this cycle of kind of smash the patriarchy thing. And I agree patriarchy. Like, that's a dinosaur should have died a long, long time ago. Right? And of course, you agree. What we're talking about now, though, is about men feeling whole and healthy and well in their lives. Because I do think that men haven't been given permission to have that in some of the pendulum swings that we've experienced lately.

Dr. Kellett: 00:37:51

Well, and what I often say when I'm talking about these issues is is that women, in many ways, have been talking about some of these issues for a very long time, and they're still talking about them still trying to move forward. But if we think about all the waves of feminism that have raised attention to issues for women, women have come together to talk about what does it mean to be a woman in this world? How do we support one another? Yeah, men have not had those conversations. And the reason is, is because of their roles of privilege, because the privilege is invisible to those who have it. And so because they're being a man hasn't traditionally been a disadvantage in society. They haven't sort of come together in unity as an oppressed group right. Now. You know, it's,

Tanya Gill: 00:38:39

and we're not saying now that men are oppressed? No, I'm not very clear. But what we're saying is that, when there is a common struggle, for example, with women, we come together and sisterhood. Right. And so that coming together and Brotherhood has happened through the ages, and continue in it does happen, that could be a whole other podcast in and of itself. And I think that what you're offering is, is kind of a conversation around what does it mean to be an authentic man now? In your life now?

Dr. Kellett: 00:39:17

Yeah. And I think this is a conversation that needs to happen not only in medicine, it just a conversation has to happen in society. And it's a conversation that needs to happen between fathers and their sons and intergenerationally. And no, I'm not suggesting men collectively are an oppressed group. But I would like us to acknowledge that not all men share equally in the dividends of patriarchy. And, and that there are men who intersectionally you know, occupied social locations which are not valued. And we can think about the cases where racialized men or transmitted, or gay men, or poor men, or combination thereof, they are not necessarily accessing the same privilege

Tanya Gill: 00:40:17

and privileges on a sliding scale it

Dr. Kellett: 00:40:19

is. And it's intersectional on a lot of different points. And, and so one of the reasons we see so many bad outcomes for men is that it's not necessarily that all men universally having bad outcomes. But once we start adding in those other things into the, into the picture, some groups of men are suffering things much worse. So when we talk about mental health, for example, we know that there's a lot of men experiencing depression a lot more than the statistics, which suggests because their presentation of depression is a little different. But we also know that gay men, for example, experienced depression, or probably twice the rate of heterosexual men. And we know that in trans men, that they are probably, you know, experiencing depression rates around 70%.

Tanya Gill: 00:41:19

Okay, so I know that a lot of listeners are probably going wait a second, if depression doesn't present the same in men, as it does in women, what are some of the flags of my partner? What should I be looking for? Like, really? Absolutely, and I'm not and I just so we're clear, this is not diagnosing your partner. This is simply awareness around flags for men's mental health, because they are different.

Dr. Kellett: 00:41:48

One of the, one of the really tough things about detecting depression and man is that the traditional symptoms that we associate with depression, like the flat effect, meaning they don't really show a lot of emotion, the withdrawal, social withdrawal, not talking very much. All these kinds of things which we might associate with depression, not showing a lot of emotion or joy. In some ways, what we're describing when we talk about that is how we want men to present present is this sort of tough, stoic guy who doesn't really express so. So right away, we're running into some difficulties. But that's not to say some men will have some of those traditional things, of sadness, of crying of withdrawal, of suicidal ideation. In men, they may not express some of those things as much because they're trying to hide it, right? The one set of symptoms that come up in men that really are quite different than women, is that men often express depression through irritability, and anger, sometimes even violence. There are. In some of the people who've done research on this, they talk about internalizing and externalizing symptoms, the internalizing symptoms are things which are pretty consistent with traditional ideas of depression, right? But they may also include things like addictions. Now, when we talk about addictions, everybody immediately goes to alcohol and drugs.

Tanya Gill: 00:43:30

But there's some other addictions that actually present significantly. Yeah,

Dr. Kellett: 00:43:35

one question that comes up a lot in men, which is a socially acceptable addiction is workaholism. monography. Pornography is a big one, for a lot of men, and also even affairs, extra marital affairs, or even obsessive hobbies, could be an example of this. Now, you know, I'm not saying there's a direct correlation between each of those things, but they could be signs that something's going on, because what addictions and compulsive behaviors and basically doing is as they are used to mask the feelings or means of escaping the feelings. Sadly, in our society, it's actually more acceptable for a lot of men to get drunk, get into a bar fight, and drive into the parking lot with their tires squealing than it is for them to break down and cry and ask for help. And I do think that a lot of the anger and irritability we see in men is often overlying sadness, or things that they're not really dealing with, or hurt or trauma. And so, so those are the externalizing symptoms are things that we kind of put out. And I would also say that suicidal choice of suicide method is also another externalizing symptom. Because I really think that when, why we see men dying of suicide at such high rates, three over before suicides in Canada, that are completed as a man is they do choose more violent means. Yeah. And, and the way I talk about this, when I talk about mental health, is I say, well, in many ways that choice of method is their last performance of masculinity. They they're choosing, they're choosing that they are going to go out like a man like a man. And, and it's also part of those externalizing symptoms, because suicide is anger turned inward, right? And so. So it's, it's an angry act towards themselves, in many ways.

Tanya Gill: 00:46:02

And, sweetheart, I think it's really important that we're clear, like if, if any of our listeners are hearing this, and they are concerned about the well being of their partner, and they've seen shifts in the way any man in their life has started to interact with the world, whether it be you know, the more traditional sense of withdrawal, or, you know, rage, anger, irritability, or even speaking of or conversation or reference to suicide, that it's very, very important to get help like, that nobody needs to be alone in this. And that, you know, it, there are medical professionals out there, there are therapists out there. And, and it is serious, and it's very important that people do seek the help that they need.

Dr. Kellett: 00:47:00

Absolutely. And I think that this is one thing that partners can do is to just reach out to them say, Hey, I see that you're having a hard time. No, do you want to talk to me about it? Would you like to talk to someone else about it? Know that, Oh, I love you. And I care about you? And, and,

Tanya Gill: 00:47:25

and be okay, like, I mean, the thing is, is also when someone's having a hard time, if someone comes to him and says, Hey, I see you're having a hard time, there's a possibility that, that the response is not going to be very kind, depending on where it's at. I'm fine. I'm fine of God, there's I'm fine. The truth is, it's really you know, that I see you and I'm here for you, I love you.

Dr. Kellett: 00:47:47

I think it's creating the opportunity. I mean, I think it's like anything, when people are going through things, they may not be ready to talk about it. But if you show them that you're there, open the door, open the door. And, you know, whether it's a female partner, or whether it's a male partner, or whether it's a friend, and there's a guy listening to this, a lot of it's just about opening the door and saying, Hey, I see you, I love you, I care about you. And if you ever want to talk about anything on here, and and I think that for a lot of men, bizarrely, that's not a common experience, they don't have a lot of people saying those kinds of things to them, especially other men. And, and so, I think it's important for them to, as you said, talk about it, but also to reach out for support. This is not something that you can necessarily deal with alone. And I'm a man who's been through depression as well and, and on and off through my life. And, and if it hadn't been for counseling, if it hadn't been for, for the supports I've had, it would have been hard to get through those periods of time. And I'm very open about talking about it because I want other men to know that it's, it's okay, you know, they're not alone. And and I think the, we have to counteract that message that says that as men, we're supposed to deal with everything alone. That somehow that's a badge of honor that you you don't ask for help

Tanya Gill: 00:49:37

be the lone wolf theater kinda. Well,

Dr. Kellett: 00:49:41

and the truth is, is that a lot of times people are taking these ideas from movies. And but in reality, you know, like I've, I've heard people talk about the training of Special Forces military people, and especially for Horses don't want the lone wolves, they they're not least bit interested in those, they are not the ones who are going to be good. It's the ones who are able to work as a team, the ones who are able to support one another are the ones who can work towards a goal. And

Tanya Gill: 00:50:18

and that comes back to the whole concept of purpose. Right? And, and purpose can, you know, there's so many different levels and layers to purpose. But you know, like, when a person knows their purpose, for being, or their purpose within a space of belonging, their purpose within their family, when when people, men, women, when people have the opportunity to understand their purpose better, I do believe it makes a huge difference in living life more joyfully. Absolutely. And that's just exactly what we came back to with that research, right.

Dr. Kellett: 00:51:02

And that's why I also think that it's good to encourage men to think about some supports, like coaching, like counseling, to realize that there are other ways to go about things, and then they don't have to do it on their own. Because I think that I think that what's kind of just happened during this period of time with COVID is just the people who have realized that, hey, what I thought was important isn't what I thought was, the goal of life is not, not the goal of life. And, and a lot of people are lost, they don't really know where to go from there. And, and I think some of it, like we've talked about as in relation to spiritual awakening, and recognizing a connection to bigger things. Some of it's just about having a sense of purpose in their life's mission right now.

Tanya Gill: 00:52:01

Absolutely. And you know, it's the other thing I always say is with coaching and therapy, it's kind of like going to the dentist. It doesn't necessarily have to be when something's rotten. It can be a piece of maintaining your health and well being and staying healthy and well in the path of the direction of your purpose and your life. And know it. It's that whole piece around the preventative medicine. And the preventative medicine, like you said, is really about being able to be seen, be heard, be authentic. And it is important for men, women, people across the planet, but this research kind of underscored that this is a real challenge for men and maybe people aren't noticing it or maybe they are and they're not talking about it. My love this has been absolutely awesome. Thank you for being on lighten up and then stuck you're with the fuck for happy to be on. I love you so much. Thank you very much. From my heart to yours, my friends. Thank you for listening to this super awesome conversation with none other than Dr. Peter kelut aka my Loverboy from my heart to yours, my friend have an awesome day and thank you for being you.