A Conversation With A “Bad” Widow - With Alison Pena

Tanya Gill: 00:00:08

Hi friend, I'm Tanya Gill, welcome to lighten up and unstuck your What the fuck. Together, we explore the ways through life's stickiness moments, and how to live with more peace, joy, love and gratitude. We're going to talk honestly about what isn't easy so you can discover the light within you that will carry you forward. My friend, this podcast is about you in real life, your body, mind and soul, and the opportunity to not only live your best, but shine and doing it.

Tanya Gill: 00:00:46

Oh, friends, I'm so excited to have you here with me today, because we're actually going to talk to a friend of mine named Alison Pena. Alison joins us from New York. And are you ready for this? She's the bad widow. Now, you know how I maybe I'm not the perfect widow. And being a widow is a very interesting part of life. And so it's always interesting to join another widow to talk about what it means, first of all, to be a fucking bad widow. And what life looks like after you lose your partner. Thank you for joining me, Alison. I'm so excited to chat.

Alison Pena: 00:01:25

Thank you so much for having me, Tanya.

Tanya Gill: 00:01:28

It is awesome to share space with you. Okay, so the very first thing I want to know is, you are the bad widow online. So let's talk about what it means to be a bad widow. What Where did bad widow come from?

Alison Pena: 00:01:40

So bad widow. Very often what happens with widows is we want to make the people around us comfortable. And grief is uncomfortable to be around. So a good widow kind of goes along, says they're fine. And I was not fine. After my husband died. I don't know any widow who is fine after their spouse dies. And so what I decided to do was I decided to blow up this dysfunctional conversation that we have around grief. How people are allowed to grieve, how people are supporting them can do that, for real. And so I became bad widow. Because bad widows blow up the assumptions tell the truth.

Tanya Gill: 00:02:35

So this is this is huge, right? When anyone loses someone that they love dearly, we go into a place of grieving. And grieving is a gift that comes from loving deeply. But because we love deeply, not just the person we've lost, but the people around us, what you're describing is that need to make it okay for everyone else.

Alison Pena: 00:03:05

Mm hmm.

Tanya Gill: 00:03:07

And what was your experience of initially trying to make it okay for everyone else?

Alison Pena: 00:03:15

Well, I'll tell you kind of a funny experience that I had the day after my husband died. A friend of mine invited me to go to church, which I don't do very often, but I do from time to time. I sing in a gospel choir for over 10 years. And so I went to church and I was talking to this woman I didn't know very well, and she started heading my arm. Like I was a chia pet. And I was looking at her and I was thinking and in church, if I bite her arm, is that okay? And I really literally thinking this, and I did nothing. But she was self soothing. Heading me feeling like a good person. And that irritated me so much. I can't even tell you. But I was just going along and I was just being nice. And I thought I cannot do this long term. I just can't. And what it does when we say we're fine when we're not fine, is that it means that the people around us they want to believe that you're fine. They'd like you to be fine. But it also doesn't give them an opportunity to actually support you.

Tanya Gill: 00:04:35

So do you can I share what I say fine stands for let's find stands for fucked on the inside. Nice exterior.

Alison Pena: 00:04:48

I love that.

Tanya Gill: 00:04:49

Right because that's that's what it is. Is that fine is exactly what you described. It's like you're you're reeling inside and at the exact same time you're trying to get this nice exterior for everyone to try and help everyone else in your own depths of grief.

Alison Pena: 00:05:06

Exactly, exactly. And what I discovered was that everyone really meant well, but in the in the void. So, life blows up, I was with my husband for 25 years. So my entire life blew up. I could not see a future that didn't include pain.

Tanya Gill: 00:05:26

May I ask a little bit about his death? I'm quite direct, because I'm very direct. My husband died in an accidental drowning in Mexico on a family vacation. That's my children at the time. Were eight months old and four years old. It fucking sucked. Oh, yeah. Great. May I ask about your husband? Death?

Alison Pena: 00:05:50

Absolutely. Absolutely. He was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, stage four pancreatic cancer in October 12 2015. Never forget those dates, you know. And they slid, we fought for his life for 11 months. Google is not your friend, but basically tells you the life expense expectancy for pancreatic cancer is horrifying. And he died in my arms at home. And that was what we wanted. But I had to fight for it. So towards the end, I have multiple people saying you have to put him in hospital hospice. You can't do this. And I said, you have no. Fucking I do that. I can do that. Watch me. Exactly.

Tanya Gill: 00:06:55

But you know, that kind of comes to that power of intention when motivated by love. Right? Like, your intention was? Yeah, this is really fucking hard. Yep. And watch me do it. And I'm sure that the people who were saying you can't do it, we're doing it. Like, there's no malice in it. They they're saying they're worried about your wellness, they're worried about your energy. They're worried about your ability to connect with him and and deal with his needs in the middle of the night and all of those things. Yeah. And yet, those people aren't the aren't the decision makers, in your experience of the end of his physical life with you together?

Alison Pena: 00:07:39

Yeah. Yeah, we were going to choose our ending if it was at all possible. And you did. And I did. And that morning, if so I knew it was coming fairly fast. And I literally was calling his friends contacting his friends and saying, Look, if you want to say goodbye, get your butts over to our apartment. This time is cut times. Fly here. It's here. And I heard the theme song from ghost that morning. And I thought this is the day this is the day. And he died. September 10. At 1010 in the morning, 2016. So lots of nines and 10s. Completion. Yep, completion. And that week, so he was very lively. I created an environment where he loved to work. So he finished his last watercolor the Thursday before the Saturday he died my arse.

Tanya Gill: 00:08:55

Like, like two days

Alison Pena: 00:08:57

before, two days. Wow. And for me, it was really important. This was something that I did before he died. Because the thing about grief is it raises up what matters. It brings that sharp and clear. It's not taking out the garbage. It's Who do you love? What do you not love?

Tanya Gill: 00:09:27

What are you open to allowing in your life? And what are you willing to just say? fuck right off.

Alison Pena: 00:09:34

Exactly. Exactly. So the gift of grief if there is a gift is to provide this huge lens on what's important. And then you can either choose to go back to the path that you were on which very often it's gone off course at some point. Life happens You know, we get tilted, knocked off.

Tanya Gill: 00:10:04

And I think that it's important for our listeners to understand, Allison, that it's not that the moment you lose someone you love, the lens opens, oh no, it's actually the opposite. You know, it's almost like the lens. It's like the shutter closes in your world. It's like, everything you know, in your life is instantly shattered, and it cannot be put back together. So you do get the opportunity to open the shutter at your own pace and discover what matters. And sometimes it comes really super fucking quickly, right? Like, in my case with John dying. I didn't even know like I was compartmentalizing my life in when we got back from Mexico, I was compartmentalizing my life into four hour blocks. Yep. So in the morning to actually think about what I was going to feed my kids for dinner was too overwhelming to figure out how it's gonna get through the next four fucking hours. So that is that shutter opening to the ability that you can reach. But at that point, it was also reminding me that what mattered in that time was our collective survival. And when I say our, that world shrinks really fucking tightly, like, you know, and like, these are my people. Yep.

Alison Pena: 00:11:36

It has to be because there's no energy for more, right. And for me, you know, sometimes I had I had memory gaps, you could drive a truck through. I walked out the door to an appointment in my slippers one day. And after that, I put a sign by the door which said, wallet, keys and included shoes. Now that seems like a stupid obvious thing. But I call it creating net. Ah, as I went through my grieving, there were all these different breakdowns that happened. I couldn't remember things. I couldn't focus. My energy varied. I couldn't be counted on to necessarily make an appointment. I couldn't be counted on to call someone back. And the people in my life didn't necessarily understood understand that when they called and it just went to voicemail and I never called them back. It still mattered that they caught. It kept me tethered to life so I, my husband died, my world fell apart. I lived in New York with an apartment my husband had a studio was a lifelong artist, left me hundreds of payments. So every day I went into this studio and one of the strongest senses is smell. The most visceral, the thing that just hits you in the heart like a knife is smell. And so every day to begin clearing out his studio because I couldn't manage to keep both. I walked into this place that smelled like the essence of my husband every single day and crud for a year. Wow. Yep. And was that

Tanya Gill: 00:13:48

the process of what did going into the studio mean for you?

Alison Pena: 00:13:56

Um, it was, you know, my husband when he was dying said keep the studio if you can, so I failed at that. But I couldn't, you know, I just couldn't. He had a lot of art that was just not good would never sell. And I had to get rid of it because all the art came home to my apartment. So I have literally in my apartment 546 pieces of art. The apartments may be 850 square feet

Tanya Gill: 00:14:30

is an incredible amounts of art. Yep.

Alison Pena: 00:14:36

And so it was how do I take myself back? So first, there were the next there's a break down. What happened? How do I create a net? Because for sure it's going to happen again. Like that memory loss happened for me A year and a half off and on.

Tanya Gill: 00:15:04

So it's putting in those systems that allow you to stay present. Because you know that that's part of the healing process. Yeah, I mean, the gaps in memory are because your whole system is focusing on kids simply keeping you alive. Right? Like, like, man, if there's a fight or flight, it is the trauma of grief. And, and, and what's so mind boggling to me is that we lose a loved one. And in their immediate family, we get like, what, two days off work, maybe three days off work. And then we're expected to go back and function with our prefrontal frontal cortex in high functioning function mode, give me a break. That's how you end up going out of the house in your slippers.

Alison Pena: 00:15:59

That is how you do that. I mean, I couldn't, I had five seconds from when I remembered I was hungry to get to the kitchen before I forgot. So put baskets of power bars around my house so that I could have a visual cue. It's my memory was not reliable. And so for every breakdown, I created a solution. Every single solitary one, go to a holiday party? How do you deal with that? When people want you to be happy?

Tanya Gill: 00:16:33

How did you deal with it when people wanted you to be happy?

Alison Pena: 00:16:38

Before I went, I decided what I would do. So if this happens, then I'm going to do that. If I burst into tears at the dinner table, then I will have spoken to the host beforehand and let them know this might happen, then I will let the people who are there know if I'm close enough to them that this might happen. Has nothing to do with them. I am okay. And this is how I want them to respond. So make a plan. That is what you want to have happen if this happens, which it probably will give yourself license to leave. But let people know. So they're not offended, and they're not worried.

Tanya Gill: 00:17:28

Those are really beautiful tips, actually, because, and we can do that in any situation, right? Like I mean, if you are making an intentional choice to go to a function, and you know that it might create vulnerability, the safest thing you can really do is be upfront about that vulnerability and ask for support. Yeah.

Alison Pena: 00:17:50

But the thing that's tricky about it is that people don't know what support to give. And so very often what winds up happening, because we don't talk about this grief stuff, we fly over the surface of what that raw turmoil is actually like. And so the people who are trying to support us have no idea. They mean well, but they have no idea and in the face of how incredibly hard it is to make any decision and take any action. Especially if it's a spouse who's died, they fly in with their advice. You must do this, you should do that. You should start dating. It's too fast to start dating. You should move you should stay where you are.

Tanya Gill: 00:18:42

Yeah, you should quit your job. You should you should stay where you're working. You should. Yeah, it just absolutely. And everyone has an opinion and has an opinion and and you know, one of the things that I really want to acknowledge is that and honor the space of your sharing around your husband's death and the beautiful gifts that you had to be able to have that time together and, and for him to to and for you to be present and you to be present together in his final breaths. Like that is such a tremendous gift.

Alison Pena: 00:19:22

It was amazing. And but that Yep, go ahead.

Tanya Gill: 00:19:25

Sorry. And and in that the magic that comes from having that connection around what plans may come forward right like he wanted you to keep the studio. So when couldn't keep the studio like, you know, you use the word I failed. The truth is that the circumstances around making that decision then or not the circumstances now and you're the one who's living now so you're the one who makes the decisions and and being able to say okay, this is the decision I chose to make now because this is the best decision for me as the living person moving forward,

Alison Pena: 00:20:05

right. But it's amazing how much moving forward in any way feels like the trail.

Tanya Gill: 00:20:15

And that's exactly what I was wondering is in is that moving forward can feel like betrayal. And when we have all of these well meaning people who love us dearly, who have all these well meaning loving opinions, yes, it becomes it really gets very hard because find means you're listening to them and taking it in. And in the back ground, you are fucking laden with guilt around feeling like you've somehow betrayed your husband. And every single one of those inputs goes back to the communication that you and your husband had to, like, some people are probably like, you need to get rid of the studio. Some people were like, You need to keep the studio some people are saying you should never date again. Some people are saying you should date again, you and your husband had conversations about that. And, and whatever those conversations were. The other piece of it is is that you are still the one that is living your life now.

Alison Pena: 00:21:24

Exactly. And because my husband left me all this art, it's complicated. So a lot of his artist friends said to me, how are you going to curate his legacy? And I thought, what about me? What about my life? And so carving time for me carving space? For who I am for who I'm becoming like your identity blows up when you lose a spouse. Oh,

Tanya Gill: 00:21:56

oh, we could do an entire podcast about identity when you lose someone. Yeah. However, it I really want to I really want to emphasize something that you shared, which was that they asked you how you were going to curate his legacy. As in how are you going to make it your job to create legacy for him that does him justice in their eyes?

Alison Pena: 00:22:29

Yep. And and give up on your own dreams.

Tanya Gill: 00:22:35

Right So and I think that you know, honestly, I think that a lot of good widows I'm just gonna be a bitch about this. I think a lot of good widows make their lives about their dead spouses legacy

Alison Pena: 00:22:48

Absolutely. Right and they live

Tanya Gill: 00:22:51

in the shadow of right I'm John I lived an immediate in the The truth is Oh, not a holy fuck I was John Gil's widow. Yeah, a few years because everybody knew John Gill and I was John Gil's wife. And then I became John Gil's widow. And people wouldn't even date me because I was John Gil's widow, and I was like, What the actual fuck? At what point? Did I stop being Tanya Gill? So you know what you're talking about that, that claiming your own life is such a huge piece of grief, but that cannot be overlooked?

Alison Pena: 00:23:31

Yeah, one of the things that I hear most from my clients is I don't feel like myself. And so one of the I wound up creating a five step path through grief. Oh, and, and honestly, one of the places is to, so it's, I'll give you a Reader's Digest version. First step is reconnect. So when who you have been blows up? Who are you at the core of you, that can get you back on solid ground? Yes, because until you do that, you can't make any good decisions.

Tanya Gill: 00:24:10

So it's reconnecting and getting grounded figuring out who the fuck

Alison Pena: 00:24:13

you are? Not exactly. And then the next piece is reengage we contract as we were talking at about at the beginning. And so, getting back out into the world, that's a choice. It doesn't just happen. There are people that I've met who said, I'm just going to live for my children until they're married. Now what they've done is they've frozen their grief in amber, and it will hit them hard. As soon as they open the box again. So reengage is engages, get back out there.

Tanya Gill: 00:24:51

Can I share a story about engagement that just really came up for me as you said that? Yeah. When when my husband died I I called it the hugging receiving line basically I said I would love to receive hugs that turned out I spent the whole time consoling 600 Grievers and, and it I mean, you know what? It was beautiful in what it was. And it was meant to be as it was and I just accept that. One of the Grievers was his aunt, and his aunt was widowed in her 40s. I was 33. When I was widowed, she was widowed in her 40s. Maybe she was widowed in her 30s as well, with three children. And when she came, she was at that point in her probably 70s, maybe 80s. And she stood there holding my hands looking me square in the eye. And she said, your life is over? Well, you have no choice now, but to just live for your children. And you will never feel whole again.

Alison Pena: 00:26:02

It's not uncommon.

Tanya Gill: 00:26:04

And and she had lived that she lived that she had made the choice to live for her children, she made the choice then to live for her grandchildren. She took care of her grandchildren a lot. And and that was her dedication and her commitment. And, and, and perhaps the way that she she chose to show up in life and feel fulfilled in the way she she could. But that was her choice. When she told me I would never love again. That was too much. I was like I am not in a place where my heart can accept that I will never love again. Yep. I just can't, and I won't. And and so there's that intention piece, right, like that intention to really get serious about reconnecting and making connections in life outside of what's familiar as well. Right?

Alison Pena: 00:27:02

Exactly. Exactly. But in that moment I didn't. I was who I was before I was with my husband, then I was who I was with him. And I didn't know what a widow was. I had no idea. And so the next piece was reinvent reinvent your identity, discover who I am, who I am becoming. After that came rebuild, people leave. It's a very common experience for people grieving to feel abandoned. And the final piece is reset your path forward. As grief raises this lens we've talked about and shows us what matters. Very often what happens is people get uncompromising. I want you in my life. I no longer want you in my life. I thought I like that activity, but I actually don't. I love doing open mics poetry singing did it a lot before my husband married my husband, but he didn't like it. So gradually across 25 years, I started doing it less and less and less and less and less. And one of the things that I did while he was dying in those 11 months is I took kabaret workshop group workshop, which culminated in two shows. The last one was the Tuesday before he died. And he shoved me out the door to go and sing. Because I needed to remember that I was more than a caregiver. And I would be more than a widow. And I sang three songs and the songs that I chose. Were to remind me at my core that there was more to me than just what was going on. It sounds really important. Listen, what's that?

Tanya Gill: 00:29:04

What songs did you say?

Alison Pena: 00:29:07

Gloria Gaynor, I will survive. A song called everybody says don't, which was about all the advice that I was getting. Everybody says don't do this. Don't do that. Don't do the other thing. And it's a I'm going to do what the hell I want. And then the last one was called the secret of happiness. Oh, from daddy long legs, and that the end of it is the secret of happiness is living in the now. And I you know, that was Tuesday. My husband died that Saturday.

Tanya Gill: 00:29:45

So Tuesday you were seeing these gorgeously beautiful songs. Yep. Thursday he was finishing his last painting.

Alison Pena: 00:29:58

Yep. On Saturday, he died in my arms on for breast, literally with his head on my shoulder with me holding him. By that time I was 30 pounds heavier than he was. And he was a foot taller than I am, then I was. Wow. But there's this decision point. I call it a tipping point. How do you get to the tipping point where you decide that you're not broken? heartbroke but you are not broken, and start to take back your life? Because that's the point at which everything can change.

Tanya Gill: 00:30:46

No, it's interesting that the concept of being broken is one of the things that that permeates through all parts of our lives, right. I mean, I actually recently met someone who described her partner as broken. Yep. And I was a little taken aback. Because I mean, it said a little bit about their relationship. But also that her partner then was like, oh, yeah, totally, like, totally like, like, as if this was an app. First of all, I'm like, okay, you know what, as long as you think you're broken, you absolutely are fucking broken. Go live your fucking broken life. Go. Here's what really happens. The world as we know it, which, by the way, is a giant fucking illusion. Anyway, it's like a big piece of glass. Yep, something traumatic happens. It hits the glass, and it fucking shatters that. The truth is that the impact of that glass is going to hit you. It is going to experience the experienced physically, emotionally, psychologically, and Holy fuck, spiritually. Everything gets rocked out of what is normal equilibrium, everything. And it is still the glass that got broken, not you. If the opportunity to look at yourself and be like, what is impacting me? And how do I tend to these injuries and these wounds for me? To be more than fine, right? Fine, is when you like, take a piece of glass, slice yourself and someone's like, oh, my god, are you okay? And you're like, Yeah, I'm fine. And you're stuck and bleeding out.

Alison Pena: 00:32:34

Exactly, exactly. And until you can get to that tipping point, until you go, this is who I was. And you hit this awful spot, where you realize you will never be that person again, ever in your life. And it's painful. But that is the place where you can design the life going forward of your dreams. That place and until you come to that decision point. You're always looking back regretting what you can no longer have.

Tanya Gill: 00:33:19

Always looking back regretting what you can no longer have.

Tanya Gill: 00:33:27

So it is reconnecting reengaged and reinventing rebuilding and then resetting. And I think that it's also really important to, to emphasize to our listeners and possibly viewers that this is also an ongoing process. So it's not like it's not like it's a one and done. But it's helped practice and an ongoing process with awareness.

Alison Pena: 00:33:57

Absolutely. And what happens is that it's really common to move faster in some areas than other areas. So getting back into work might be faster than getting back into a relationship or getting, you know, recovering health might be slower or faster or grief lasts a long time. Grief lasts a lifetime, but it changes and morphs over time. On the short end, it's five years. For real

Tanya Gill: 00:34:32

I was so glad you said that. I'm laughing my ass off because I remember that. Like for when John died, I was like, I'm just gonna fucking get this over with In fact, I went to my doctor when we got home. And I was like, I just need the drugs that are gonna get me through this and bless him. He is such a beautiful, he he has passed. But he was a really spectacular doctor and he sat with me and cried with me. Yep. You said, Tanya, the only way you're going to get through this is if you feel it. I'm not giving you drugs, so you can't feel it. You have to feel your way through. Yep. And I remember thinking, this is a bunch of fucking bullshit. And I went home and I was like, Okay, it's December, I'm going into a new year, maybe 2008 will be the year that I just get over the grief. Like, I'm like, I'll make 2008 My get over the grief year, what's the fog? Right. So when you say, you know, at a minimum, you'll, and the thing about it is, is everybody has their own grief line, everyone has their own grief pattern. And we also have our dips into grief. Like it's so nonlinear and so unique for each person. But commonly, it does take about five years to be at a place where talking about grief is not retriggering for ourselves.

Alison Pena: 00:36:05

Yeah, last year was my fifth year. So I'm coming up on my sixth year. And the week before the day, my husband died, I was in tears for an entire week. And that day, at 1010 in the morning, I was fine. 1011 I was fine. The minute after I was fine. I was a basket case for the week before that basket case I am

Tanya Gill: 00:36:38

I am not laughing at you. I am just absolutely understanding it so deeply. If for people who are listening, we call that anticipatory grief. And what we do is we get ourselves worked up about a date, or an anniversary or an event that we that we believe will be triggering for us. So basically, we work out all of our shit in the anticipatory grief phase. And then when you get there, it's no big fucking deal. And then you're a little bit pissed off. That was no big deal.

Alison Pena: 00:37:11

Right? Right. Yeah, so I wound up I wrote a book turned out to be a best seller, when it launched for about a minute, called the bad widow Guide to Life After loss moving through grief to live in love again. And I told this stories. So I shared some of the ways that I got through myself. But it was really important to me that it be grounded in the stories, the true stories, and not just the short stories that make me look good. The stories of the times, I felt like I was absolutely crazy.

Tanya Gill: 00:37:52

Okay, let's talk about a crazy moment. What are your highlight crazies, just so people can get a feel for your book and also see that, you know, being a widow gives you permission to realize that there's crazy moments.

Alison Pena: 00:38:07

Yeah, a lot of crazy moments happen around relationships. So someone will say something, and you'll lash out and they'll leave. And they don't get that was the the first year was predominantly Greek. The second year was zero to rage in five seconds. Oh, like full on rage, uncontrollable, unpredictable. And so those things make you feel crazy. And people say things like well just control yourself. One of the things that I did that I think is important to mention. I also hacked Bumble, and found my boyfriend that I live with in six months. But that's another story. But I created rituals, because time moves differently for me than for anyone else. That's just true when you're grieving. Right?

Tanya Gill: 00:39:08

I want to just step into that, really, I think it's really important we plant our feet into that statement because time does move differently when you are grieving. And if you have lost someone that you love, whether it be a spouse, or your grandma or a friend or cod forbid a child, you understand that time becomes

Alison Pena: 00:39:35

so fluid

Tanya Gill: 00:39:39

and sticky at the exact same time. Time feels like it's dragging and it feels like it's moving faster than you can manage. It feels like all of a sudden the calendar is flipping and you're facing the one year anniversary. And at the exact same time you're thinking How how can it have been a full year? And oh my god, how am I going to live beyond this year? It's all of those pieces that time plays in the grief process. And so, you know, you were talking about relationships stuff and how, you know, you'd have these situations around anger and, and my, one of my, you know, if I'm all cards on the table around putting out your, you know, hanging out in your dirty laundry, if you will. I started dating, I'm going to use that air quotes really loosely. A few months after my husband died. And what I realized was that I didn't want a relationship. I actually just wanted Well, it was actually meaningless sex to be cuddled. I wanted to be held, and I was willing to have sex, whatever, to have that 20 minutes of laying being held by someone.

Alison Pena: 00:41:04

Yep. And,

Tanya Gill: 00:41:07

you know, at some point in my children's lives, they may listen to this podcast and be absolutely completely fucking horrified. But the truth is that it was serving an important need for me that I couldn't get from anywhere else. And, and I wasn't looking for a relationship. I may have pretended I was, but the truth is, is all I wanted was that being held. And people some people might say, Yeah, but like, that person didn't love you, and blah, blah. You're absolutely right. I wasn't ready to be loved like that, anyway. Yep. But I could handle some Nucky and a cuddle. But don't ask for more than that. And, you know, like, that was my path of grief. And I know that I was judged for it. And let's be straight. I judged myself for it, too.

Alison Pena: 00:41:55

Yep. There's a name for it. It's called widows fire. Widows fire. There's actually a name for it is a real phenomenon that happens for many widows.

Tanya Gill: 00:42:09

And so And can you explain Widow's fire a little bit more?

Alison Pena: 00:42:13

So widows fire is the desire for sex and intimacy. Without necessarily the love and affection because that is so much more complicated than the physicality because it makes us feel alive. Right? Right. I myself sprained my finger masturbating to

Tanya Gill: 00:42:45

Oh, my God, I love this. I love this. Okay, so you guys, this is how much I love this woman, right? Like she just told me braid her finger masturbating. And that just makes her extra amazing to me. Because Because that's what's real, right? Like, this podcast, Allison is lightened up and unstuck. You're What the fuck. And it is about talking about real shit. And this stuff is real. Grief is real. Having the desire for sex and connection in that way in the face of loss is real. Like, it doesn't mean that you move into this world of celibacy forever, and you don't touch yourself because your partner is not there to touch you like it again, it's honoring your life as it is moving forward.

Alison Pena: 00:43:36

And one thing that I discovered that I think is really important to mention is we think that the emotions rise by themselves. But when I started dating, I found that the grief and the desire and the joy rose at the same time. And I came to understand that that's still joy. Let's talk about that a little bit more.

Tanya Gill: 00:44:05

It's rising at the same time, but it's still joy. Why?

Alison Pena: 00:44:10

How do you know that? Because feeling would not be there if it was not meant to be felt. So for example, I decided at a certain point that I was unwilling to live without love for the rest of my life. And so I got on Bumble and I started swiping. Now, the last time I had dated was 1992. And it was 2018. And I was 56 When my husband died. types have changed. And

Tanya Gill: 00:44:53

online dating is a whole animal into and of itself.

Alison Pena: 00:44:57

Oh yeah. Oh, yeah. But I had a used the online dating app in a couple of ways. I didn't know who I was or what I wanted. So I used it as I had these interactions with people to figure that out. What kind of people do I like? Who am I in this situation? Am I a sexual being? I started dating this guy, and I had this idea. I'm gonna do two years of like dating.

Tanya Gill: 00:45:31

You had a plan? I had a plan. How'd that work out for you?

Alison Pena: 00:45:35

Not very well. So July 1 2018. I had not dated since 1992. And I know we're running out of time. So if you want to cut me off, that's fine. We're good. Okay. So I had not dated since 1992. It was 2018. And I had accepted to go to brunch with this young guy. That same day, I had swiped on another guy, and said, You know, it's a hot day, July 1 2018. It's a hot day, I'm gonna go see this movie or that movie? And why don't we get together sometime? And he wrote back and he said, Why don't we go to one of the two movies I had said, and let's have some baby today. And I was like, Okay. And we started dating, and all the distance that I could go was one date. Could I do another one? Two dates. Could I do a third one? That was my timeframe. That was it. But he just kept showing up. And I was a hot mess. I couldn't be touched because the only person who touched me for 25 years was my husband. Yeah, so any other arm around my waist, any kiss on my lips felt wrong. They couldn't trust my own chemistry, my own body. For quite some time, somebody tried to kiss me caused a panic attack. Now this stuff makes you feel crazy. The desire is rising. It's mutual. And I'm panicking. In like, October, I called up this guy. Like he just kept showing up. He just kept being okay with me exactly as I was hot mess and all. And I called him up and I said, you know, I'm coming up on some really bad anniversaries. And you probably just don't want to see me till January. And then two days later, I called him and I said, Well, my cousin is doing a show at MoMA, I'm meeting my mom there, do you want to come? This poor man, you know.

Tanya Gill: 00:48:05

The, by the way, folks, this really is life with a widow like the change. It's like, like, that is very, especially in the early days of loss, it just is the way it is like, because when you decide you're doing something, it's decided and life is too short not to make like to go in that direction. So shit changes a lot. And that's part of grieving is being able to move with someone in their grief and the changes that they need. So okay, so what happened?

Alison Pena: 00:48:41

So we just kept dating, and we got to Christmas of 2019. And we were in the same place. We wanted to move forward. We had never been intimate. And I wanted him to move in with not as a roommate, as a boyfriend. And so what we decided to do, and this could all have gone horribly wrong, because I still was having trouble being touched. I'd gotten to the point where kisses didn't cause panic attacks, but was complicated. And so we decided we would go away to Tarrytown. It's about 45 minutes away from New York and get a hotel room and I would try to push through all the feelings I had about being intimate with someone other than my husband. And so I packed two things of lingerie and a red and white spotted thing from Old Navy that went from my ankles, to my up here to my wrists, ankles. It was like a whole thing. And we got there and I was going to try. I was just He's gonna try and push through all of these feelings. And so I went in the bathroom, I changed into my red and white spotted suit onesie, yeah. Once they close the Tuesday, I came out of the bathroom, I opened my arms, and I said, Is this okay? And he looked at me, like all of the holidays in the year had just come through for him at once was a rough weekend, I had hoped I would burst into tears, and then I would be over and through it. That was not what happened. We, you know, sort of held each other and just went at different levels of intimacy until I hit panic. And then I would say, Stop. At any time. One of my favorite moments was when it was pretty hot and heavy. And I said, stop. And he said, You got to be kidding. But we stopped. And just kept pressing on through, take a break, settle the nervous system, come back, because I was more committed to love in my life, than to being stopped by all these very conflicted feelings about going forward without my husband. And,

Tanya Gill: 00:51:27

you know, it's beautiful that you and he were able to arrive in that place and honor one another in such a way that is tender and loving, and connecting and compassionate. All the layers that are love. Yes, and, and, Alison, the most important piece of this is that you had to arrive at that place, and decide with intention, that this is what you were ready to do for yourself. Yes. And, you know, like, you made the decision when you did in relation to a relationship you were in. But whatever the case is, for people, it really is about deciding this is what I'm going to do. And this is what I'm willing to step through, to continue to create my life. But only you get to know the timing of that.

Alison Pena: 00:52:27

Exactly. Right, exactly. Because until I got to that point, where my end, this is really where I find people make these decisions, when the long end gets bigger than the fear. So the question is, how do you find a way to push yourself to where the long end gets bigger than the fear?

Tanya Gill: 00:52:56

That's that tipping that becomes that's the tipping point of everything No, right? You know, it really is, it's where it's where you're driven by fear. And there's the tipping point, and you decide if you're going to live on the side of the mountain, that is fear. Or if you've recognized all the riches on the other side of the tipping point. And you are focused enough to get through the fear, to enjoy the desire and enjoy the beauty and enjoy what you want on the other side

Alison Pena: 00:53:26

of that. But what I've discovered is you need to ramp up your longing to make it bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger until you get over that hill. Right?

Tanya Gill: 00:53:38

Well, and some people, some people have like, this is their, this is their fear. And then this is their, their, their desire, their longing. It's like, they're not even they don't really know for sure what they want. They just want to get through the fear. Well, if you don't know what the fuck you want on the other side of it, it really comes down to and I say this a lot. Focus on what you want to create for yourself, not what you don't want.

Alison Pena: 00:54:03

Yes. Right, what we resist

Tanya Gill: 00:54:07

persists. So if you keep focusing on all the shit that you don't want, you're going to keep attracting it. You're going to keep getting it, you're going to keep living in the grief, you're going to keep staying in the stuck and the muck in the in the fuck.

Alison Pena: 00:54:18

Right? Yes, yes. But I love

Tanya Gill: 00:54:23

that the more you get clear about that desire, the more you get clear about what you want and how you want that to be created for yourself. Yeah, exactly what have you so what have you created for

Alison Pena: 00:54:35

yourself? Ah, what have I created for myself? So in my in my work, I do one on one coaching. I've written this best selling book. I just created something I'm really excited about because grief lasts a long time, but most people can't hire someone to one on one coach them through five years. That's not happening. And so the thing that I saw was missing was a membership, where you could get the bones of the lessons that I learned, moving through my grief that I now take my clients through in a membership portal and that with additional coaching,

Tanya Gill: 00:55:20

I was just going to say in that way they stay connected at the pace and the space and the needs that they have.

Alison Pena: 00:55:26

Exactly. I love it come in when you need it go out when you don't. It's called Heartbreak to hope Haven.

Tanya Gill: 00:55:34

Heartbreak to hope Haven. All right, heartbreak to hope Haven. What's your website?

Alison Pena: 00:55:41

thebadwidow.com Of course

Tanya Gill: 00:55:43

alright, I can't believe I asked that. Oh my god, perfectlyimperfect.WTF meets badwidow.com, holy shit is so awesome. I just love you so much.

Alison Pena: 00:55:59

This is great.

Tanya Gill: 00:56:00

This is so fun. Okay. We are having such a great conversation. And I feel like there's lots of potential for future conversations. Allison, this has been amazing. I know that our listeners right now are going this woman's got some gems and this was cool. So I will ensure that all your contact information is in the show notes because you are fabulous. And we all grieve that is reality. And grief is the gift of love. Alison, all the way from New York City. Thank you so much for being here. And do you have any final message for our listeners?

Alison Pena: 00:56:46

Just yourself. Trust yourself. Thank you.

Tanya Gill: 00:56:51

Trust yourself, bitches. That's what you need to do. You need to recognize that you are capable of trusting yourself. This has been another awesome episode of lineup and I'm stuck. You're What the fuck? With Alison Pena. Thank you friends. We'll talk to you soon. Oh ha